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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Glinner thing

359 replies

JohnnyW2001 · 27/06/2020 15:12

Hello! Yes, I'm a dreaded new user, and I registered here just to reply to @glinner's post. I don't wish to gloat or insult. I just wanted to reply to one specific point:

"a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body"

Unfortunately it seems I cannot reply to that thread? So I'll write what I have to say here. Hopefully it will be taken in the spirit it's intended: Non confrontational sharing of science.

The problem with the sentence I quoted is that it's scientifically unsound. Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

What's especially interesting is that when you put people who claim to feel in the "wrong body" (as you put it) into brain imaging, they do indeed appear to have the wrong gendered brain for their body. There are observable unique characteristics that indicate a difference. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in studies for decades, and as our imaging technology has improved, it's only become more supported by science.

There are so many studies supporting this from the last 40 years, that it's difficult to pick one. Here's a few for you to Google (I can't seem to post links):

"Neuroimaging studies in people with gender incongruence", Kreukels, Baudewijntje, et al
"Grey and white matter volumes either in treatment-naïve or hormone-treated transgender women: a voxel-based morphometry study",
Giancarlo Spizzirri, et al

(Also, before anybody brings this up, I'm aware there are some scientists - namely Gina Rippon - who believe there is no biological brain gender, and that the entire brain is blank-slate shaped from birth. For those who are unaware, her argument is that society is what shapes female and male brains, due to the sheer elasticity of that organ, and that is why we see differences. One of the many problems with this argument is that the same gendered biological differences are also seen in animals. The exact same differences we see in humans. Society isn't playing role in rhesus monkeys.

Another is that there is measurable differences in male and female brains just 24 hours after birth.

To be brief: Scientists like Rippon, who claim there zero biological differences between male and female brains are, to put it mildly, are very much on the fringe and not the mainstream, despite the incredible amount of press they get.

Mainstream science says that when it comes to the gendered differences between our brains, biology plays a role and society plays a role -- not exactly controversial or difficult to believe.

Here's an article from Stanford Medicine which goes through the countless ways in which we have demonstrated biological gendered differences between brains over the decades, and how it cannot just be society as Rippon insists: "Two minds: The cognitive differences between men and women", Bruce Goldman at StanMed. Many of the falsehoods in Rippon's work are pointed out in Professor Simon Baron-Cohen's review of her book in The Times (March 2019), too.)

Just to be clear, I'm not making a political statement, I'm just sharing the science. And all mainstream science indicates that it is indeed biologically possible to have a female traited brain in a male traited body, and vise versa.

I will add one personal note: I have to say that this doesn't surprise me at all. Our genes are programmed to be occasionally random: Some people are born without a sense of smell, or missing limbs, or extra limbs, or whatever. So if there is such a thing as a female brain and a male brain then it makes perfect sense to me that occasionally someone would get a male brain in a female body, or vise versa.

And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay, for example, which opens you up to persecution and complications and which historically was seen as a malady to be "cured") are usually right. These people really ARE suffering, and today we even have the science to prove that their complaint appears to be true.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not pushing any political agenda, or even suggesting the best way to address this situation, I'm just sharing the science, and hopefully appealing to your higher self. Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history.

Thanks.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
FantaOra · 27/06/2020 18:45

If the new Stonewall CEO wants some research into social acceptance she can read this thread. This is the bollocks pushed at women that we are expected to accept.

Start speaking honestly and you will be listened to, this bullshit is not going to succeed.

Axie · 27/06/2020 18:51

OK, I give in. I'm a very long-time lurker and this has finally drawn me out.

I started reading the "Grey and white matter volumes either in treatment-naïve or hormone-treated transgender women: a voxel-based morphometry study" article. I got to the point where it stated Although this study noted differences in sex/gender and behaviour, the human brain has a variety of individual characteristics that may each be more masculine or feminine. Consequently, human brains cannot be classified into two distinct categories of “male brain” versus “female brain”....

I may need a stiff drink before I carry on.

bluebluezoo · 27/06/2020 18:52

I read a long twitter rant about violence agains trans w recently.

Being groped in pubs and clubs.
Being shouted and catcalled in the street
Scared to go into toilets in case someone was in there who wished them ill
Scared to walk down the street at night
Scared when alone at night and passing men/groups of men.

Etc

They don’t seem to recognise that this is women’s experience. Every day of their lives.

If they are women, this is part of being one. They should feel grateful for this “violence” as surely it validates their female experience?

nellodee · 27/06/2020 18:53

If men have man brains, and women have lady brains, why is it that transwomen offend at the same rate and with the same profile as men, not women? Have they got the wrong kind of brain and the wrong kind of body as well? How awful for them! Or perhaps brains aren't actually involved in sexual crimes and the penises are like the tail wagging the dog? Either way, I'd like my sex segregated spaces penis free, thank you.

Karwomannghia · 27/06/2020 19:01

Based on the way in which women and men have conducted themselves throughout history and speaking very generally I would agree there are definite differences in their brains and it appears that women are more intelligent than men. Takes more than a dress to achieve that.

CharlieParley · 27/06/2020 19:05

Yup, Axie, that's precisely what happens when you start reading the actual papers and not just the cherry picked quotes or the press release. Almost all of these studies disprove the claim that there's evidence for ladybrainz. Stiff drink indeed.

TorkTorkBam · 27/06/2020 19:12

I have been told many times that I think like a man. I also do a job that is male-dominated. Maybe I would have a male brain then, if indeed such a thing existed (the research shows that's bollocks though). So?

My 14 year old son is still stronger than me. I am still wary of being alone with an unknown male in a secluded location. My body still got ravaged by pregnancy. I have been overlooked at work because it was assumed parenting would stop me being dedicated enough to big projects while no such assumptions were made about colleagues who were fathers.

So what if my brain were "wrong"? It's my body that causes the sexism problems and the being physically vulnerable risk. I can't think my way out of being physically weaker than a typical teenage boy. I can't think my way out of other people's sexism.

InionEile · 27/06/2020 19:17

Soooo... let me get this straight, Johnny-Come-Lately:

  1. Binary male/female sex is a myth, a social construct. Sex is a rainbow, genderbread spectrum, right?
  2. There are male brains and female brains and some people with female brains get born in a male body and vice versa , right?

How do you reconcile these two ideas? They’re both inherent to the trans rights movement but completely contradict each other.

Life is pretty simple for us gender critical feminists. Sex is real, gender is a construct, women (adult human females) experience oppression based on our reproductive biology and the social constructs the patriarchy built to control it. Amazing. How can our fragile simpering female brains have come up with such a logical, coherent ideology all by ourselves? simpers

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 27/06/2020 19:28

God these brain sex threads are the height of cringe. How can people honostly believe this bollocks?

Premise 1: brain structure X is only found in females.
Premise 2: brain structure X has now also been found in some males but not in some females.

Which is the more realistic conclusion?
a) the males with brain structure X are really female, and the females without brain structure X are really male.
b) brain structure X is not specific to either sex

I mean, how thick do you actually need to be to think its the former? Only someone with a serious commitment to harming women would draw conclusion A.

Its basically the "no black swan" fallacy, with a side order of extra fallacy. Imagine that you have only ever seen white swans and black crows. You conclude from this that there are no black swans and no white crows. One day you see a black Swan. It has everything in common with the other swans, except its colour, and nothing in common with the crows except its colour. Do you think a) oh look, that Swan must really be a crow, or B) huh, I guess swans can have black feathers after all. And this example even gives you waaay more of a head start than you deserve because it does at least start from a position that the characteristic in question (feather colour) has developed due to biological and not social factors.

Honostly that's not even the stupidest bit of the brain sex argument. I could go on for pages about all the biases and fallacies that the argument relies on. But at the end of the day it doesn't matter how many times we debunk this nonsense - it doesn't even seem to matter that most of the papers you cite specifically refute the conclusion you're drawing from them. "Gender science" continues to limp on for the same reason race science does - so that bigots can use it to oppress their chosen group. And that OP, is why you are both scientifically illiterate, and a misogynist.

PumbaasCucumbas · 27/06/2020 19:30

@7Days

Womens rights came about as a correction against being the smaller weaker less violent half of humanity who bear the children

Nothing to do with brains.

Biology is real
Sometimes it matters
Shore up safeguarding

After that crack on and let's all live our best lives

This ^^
motorcyclenumptiness · 27/06/2020 19:34

sharing of science
Are you Dr Hfuhruhurr, op?

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 27/06/2020 19:34

@InionEile

Soooo... let me get this straight, Johnny-Come-Lately:
  1. Binary male/female sex is a myth, a social construct. Sex is a rainbow, genderbread spectrum, right?
  2. There are male brains and female brains and some people with female brains get born in a male body and vice versa , right?

How do you reconcile these two ideas? They’re both inherent to the trans rights movement but completely contradict each other.

Life is pretty simple for us gender critical feminists. Sex is real, gender is a construct, women (adult human females) experience oppression based on our reproductive biology and the social constructs the patriarchy built to control it. Amazing. How can our fragile simpering female brains have come up with such a logical, coherent ideology all by ourselves? simpers

Nicely put
JemimaShore · 27/06/2020 19:42

@motorcyclenumptiness

sharing of science Are you Dr Hfuhruhurr, op?
Grin
CatandtheFiddle · 27/06/2020 19:45

Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

Nope. Wrong.

And I have a PhD to prove it. You really need to think twice before patronising highly-educated & articulate readers of a feminist forum.

CatandtheFiddle · 27/06/2020 19:47

And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay

And stop with the homophobia. No gay man or lesbian in my family or of my acquaintance would "rather avoid" being gay.

Totally homophobic statement.

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/06/2020 19:49

Omg I can't be arsed to read this whole thread as the opening post was so tedious but I bloody hope someone pointed out that Rippon does say there are sex differences in the brain.

They're very different between the sexes.

You just get the basic brain according to the sex you're conceived as.

HopeClearwater · 27/06/2020 19:54

7 pages in and he’s not back yet?

I’m very much looking forward to the Positive Ladybrain Scan Certificate, Let Me Into The Ladies Bogs With My Ladydick outcome here, although I expect someone will actually try to invent some kind of dodgy machine to provide such a result to the hairy-handed TRAs in exchange for lots of money....

NewNewt · 27/06/2020 20:00

AND, the brain is PLASTIC!

FloralBunting · 27/06/2020 20:01

In conclusion, no.

JunoJigglewick · 27/06/2020 20:06

Girl brains and boy brains, eh? Kind of like how we can "feel" like a man or a woman without being able to define what that means...

All I know is that when I was a teenage Girl, my school wouldn't let girls do technical drawing because girl brains couldn't cope with it. Allegedly. Based on nothing but stereotypes and prejudice. But your science OP is suggesting that stereotyping and prejudice is ok?

Nah.

ErrolTheDragon · 27/06/2020 20:08

Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

Well, there's one - in all the cells (bar blood cells), if you looked at the pairs of sex chromosomes you'd see a clear difference between the male and female brains.

Maybe you need to be used to working at the Ångstrom scale to think of it as a 'physical trait' though?Grin

Nephthia · 27/06/2020 20:12

Hello :)

I actually had a look at the paper you've listed and it also says this "We have reviewed the literature on brain imaging studies in vivo in people with gender incongruence. To the best of our knowledge, we have covered the entire structural and functional literature. We would like to stress that the main constraints we found were not only that there are STILL ONLY A FEW STUDIES ON THE SUBJECT but also that techniques, design, and samples are very diverse across studies. To reach a clear picture of the brains of people with gender incongruence, this should be overcome in future studies by avoiding the use of mixed samples with respect to age, onset age of feelings of gender incontinence, and sexual orientation." The actual paper you have used to back up your claim "There are so many studies supporting this from the last 40 years, that it's difficult to pick one." actually contradicts your statement.

Being a woman is more than just our brains. It is our brains in our female bodies and our female experiences that come with it. Females get mistreated, raped, mutilated, trafficked, sold, used, and abused because we are in our female body. From the moment we are born until we die some of us around the world are subjected to untold punishments because we are girls, women, females. So, even IF, and that is a big IF, science one day comes with conclusive proof that there is such a thing as a female brain in a male body, those men still can't be women. Apart from the fact that their genetic code is that of the male of the species, they can't experience what it is like to be women like we do every day of our lives.

At the end of the day why can't those people who feel they are in a wrong body be the best they can be as themselves? they can never know what it feels to be a woman, heck I don't claim to know what it is like to be them even IF they had a female brain. So why can't they fight and stand up for their own rights as transwomen and feel the need to take ours? the ones that WE women died for? (and still do in some places)

Since I realised what has been happening and started reading more I also started following a number of transwomen on twitter that are actually very vocal about being males and strong advocates of women's rights. If the female brain theory is correct why do those transwomen don't feel the same need to gaslight us with the "transwomen are women" mantra? I personally do not have a problem with trans people and I believe they need to have safe spaces and their rights protected like every other human being. Why does it have to be ours though? why do we have to be called "non-male" or "menstruators" or "cervix havers" or "cis" like we're a subset of our own sex? it is humiliating to be spoken to in this way. Yet if anyone dares to mention that they can't be female when they are intact males you see comments like " you're a pervert if you only define people by their genitals"....

I am not trying to make political points either. I actually had neutral opinions on the subject until I saw some of the things that Graham was posting and followed the stories and went down the rabbit hole. Women like JK Rowling stood up for us and was subjected to the vilest abuse on social media..why? nothing of what she said was transphobic or abusive in any way....because deep down inside, female brain on not, this boils down to misogyny :(

Lastly, since we're talking about science papers here is one for you to read

link.springer.com/epdf/10.1007/s12129-020-09877-8?sharing_token=Wju7pagbpWZw0t_qJTx1T_e4RwlQNchNByi7wbcMAY4m7bhVvT3i3HzK1MtbR0sAj3X6fKY8SAYEvIodxn7BFrNv6ieSienYmepjKKDkBglnsxWn6NeO6s4Zo5C6m_gL8phpEE2XN5aJvO10kfSpt9ram2k3vTA8YRK1yqMWOY0%3D

ErrolTheDragon · 27/06/2020 20:13

All I know is that when I was a teenage Girl, my school wouldn't let girls do technical drawing because girl brains couldn't cope with it

DD had some trouble when in the first term of her engineering degree, for some perverse reason, they made them do some old-fashioned TD instead of going straight to the CAD software... she was too short for the drawing boards.
Similarly, she needed the women's screwdriver ... twice as long for extra leverage.

Bananabixfloof · 27/06/2020 20:13

@HopeClearwater

7 pages in and he’s not back yet?

I’m very much looking forward to the Positive Ladybrain Scan Certificate, Let Me Into The Ladies Bogs With My Ladydick outcome here, although I expect someone will actually try to invent some kind of dodgy machine to provide such a result to the hairy-handed TRAs in exchange for lots of money....

Is it not ladydique? More umm feminine sounding or summat.
prolefeed · 27/06/2020 20:19

Johnny, mate. This is a parenting forum. Did mummy talk to you about the birds and the bees?
My tiny little lady brain has exploded, obv.
What medical tests would you instigate on patients applying for GRC to prove what type of brain they had? Would we do this at birth (hahaha) to replace the much simpler genital identification and that would be put on the birth certificate? (Ethically that’s a bit dubious as they don’t like scanning newborns brains - even dc3 who was brain damaged at birth had to wait until day 12) or would it be at age 12 after some degree of socialization?
Clearly everyone would need a scan to determine their true authentic self? So that all these pesky science men trapped in female bodies can be forced to use the men’s?
What happens if you disagree? Will all the people who now identify as trans be called cis because they agree with their brain scan? And all the people that think cis is a made up bollocks word and that gender is nonsense be forced to identify as trans?
It’s so complicated. My poor woman brain.

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