Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If someone identifies as an amputee they are given psychological help

247 replies

gardenbird48 · 25/06/2020 10:52

and steered away from modifying their body. They are not immediately affirmed, applauded by their friends and sent for surgery. BDD is the same.
I am really struggling with the difference between this and gender dysphoria, can anyone, esp with a psychiatry background explain please?

OP posts:
NotBadConsidering · 26/06/2020 12:57

You’re not answering the OP’s question. You said trans people are happier after surgery. You were asked to prove it and you haven’t. You’ve linked weak evidence. You’ve linked a paper of 42 Iranians.

Ask yourself this Sapphos: would Iranian men be happier after surgery?

Before surgery: threats of execution

After surgery: recognised by totalitarian government and threat of execution gone.

Why do you think Iranians might be happier after surgery?

OldCrone · 26/06/2020 13:22

@SapphosRock

Quite difficult to answer the OP's question when people who are happy to take part in a study don't count, Iranians don't count and trans people themselves don't count.
The OP asked why people with conditions such as Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID) and body dysmorphic disorder (BDD) are treated so differently from people with gender dysphoria.

You haven't even attempted to answer this question. You've simply derailed with 'transsexuals are happier after surgery' (backed up by studies in Iran), and suggested that gender dysphoria is similar to being gay, when it quite clearly isn't.

Bananabixfloof · 26/06/2020 13:29

@SapphosRock

I don't really knows why it matters anyway?

There are two points:

  1. Adult wants to permanently alter their own body - fine.
  1. Adult wants everyone in society to recognise their altered body as the opposite sex in every situation - not fine.

I don't see the point in debating Point 1 as it is nobody else's business really. If a person is determined enough they will do it anyway, as per the OP's recent examples.

You obviously think it matters enough to post about the issues. Adults can do what they want to their own bodies. But when you push children down this road a line is drawn. Adults can hope people recognise them as a different sex and generally we are not mean people and would in most cases refer to them as they wish, even though we can tell, but we can't be forced.
Milotic · 26/06/2020 16:02

@SapphosRock I havent actually bothered watching it. I was gaslighted for 2 years by my ex I'm not going to be gaslighted by someone on the internet.

I'm not even going to argue against your opinion. I'm going to pretend everything you've said is absolutely correct.

That all trans people who undergo surgery and affirming treatments are happy.

Great.

Now can we discuss the much larger number of "trans" people who have no such intention is seeking out these therapies or any irreversible surgeries. How can you claim these are happier for them when they arent having them?

How can you claim they WOULD be happier if they did seek them out without knowing them? They display a lot of the symptoms and behaviour I do. Except they're being encouraged. If I was being encouraged I'd be behaving the same way. It is dangerous to encourage people with these issues.

WHAT can you POSSIBLY have against people displaying symptoms of a serious identity disorder being medically assessed to ensure they're not being treated in a dangerous life destroying manner.

My identity disorder has ruined my life.

Even though for a long time it was "just me expressing myself" and I "wasnt hurting anyone". No I wasnt. But I was hurting myself doing that because when I needed the knowledge I should've been learning while inwas in la la land pretending I'm a fuckin fairy I didnt have it and you end up using the subconscious, less refined almost teenage part of your brain because you've gaslighted your conscious mind so much.

I have a complete split in my personality because of the amount of gaslighting and trauma I went through and the reason that happened is because I'd spent years priming my brain to do that u dissociation and pretending I was this make believe character.

PositivelyPelican · 26/06/2020 16:31

I'm a lurker who is very much indebted to the intelligent, articulate and tenacious GC posters on FWR for opening my eyes to the whole TRA can of worms.

I've also conducted and peer-reviews behavioural research in human subjects for almost two decades as part of my job. Even leaving aside its sociocultural context and small sample size, that Iranian study has significant methodological flaws that undermine the conclusions that can be drawn from the study.

For starters, it's a cross-sectional study rather than a longitudinal one. The participants in the pre-op and post-op study groups aren't the same people followed over time as they undergo surgery, they're different groups of people. Therefore, strictly speaking, you can't conclude from these data that trans individuals become happier as a result of surgical intervention; just that, on average, the post-op trans people in this study were happier than the pre-op trans people in this study.

Whether this is generalisable to the Iranian trans population as a whole (let alone the rest of the world) depends on how representative the study population was of the Iranian trans community. The recruitment process used for this study was open to sampling bias. Participants for this study were so difficult to recruit that they used a "snowball" sampling method; "one individual was selected by the researcher and s/he was asked for his/her friends who were in the same situation". It isn't clear whether participants may have interpreted "in the same situation" to mean "another post-op trans person" or "another post-op trans person who is as happy as me after surgery". Whether individuals with a negative outcome from surgery are likely to be in social contact with those whose outcome was more positive is open to speculation.

The results of a statistical analysis on the "happiness" data are reported, but not the actual data - even though the authors do report the data for the mental health scales they used for the second part of the analysis. The most common reason for this sort of scientific "fudge" is that the raw data show something the authors don't want to report - in this case, perhaps that, despite the significant difference between the happiness ratings of the pre-op and post-op groups, the ratings weren't particularly high in either group...?

Not forgetting that most of the Introduction is a spectacular conflation of sex and gender, (even allowing for ESL) resulting in such statements as:

The majority of people have either the characteristics of masculinity or femininity, but some have the characteristics of both men and women (3) called transsexual people.

...gender is determined by physiological, biological and anatomical differences genetically determined at birth.

Spero · 27/06/2020 07:28

As an amputee who wears a prosthetic leg, no one will be 'affirmed' in their wish to be an amputee because it requires a great deal of expensive equipment that the state pays for - at the moment. My last knee for eg cost £30k.

I do not doubt however that human frailties mean that many people genuinely wish for things that bring them very little benefit, from the perspective of any rational observer.

SapphosRock · 27/06/2020 08:24

I do not doubt however that human frailties mean that many people genuinely wish for things that bring them very little benefit, from the perspective of any rational observer.

This is so true. Strange isn't it? Much like how a large proportion of humans have an imaginary friend who lives in the sky who has strict instructions about what humans can and cannot do. And how some people are so scared of this imaginary friend they will sacrifice a lifetime of happiness in order not to upset Him.

BaronessBrighterThanYou · 27/06/2020 08:31

Homosexuality used to be classed as a mental illness.

Why did you say that? Have you ever believed that?

SapphosRock · 27/06/2020 08:45

BaronessBrighterThanYou Growing up as a lesbian I didn't want to believe it but a lot of influential adults in my life made me doubt myself.

BaronessBrighterThanYou · 27/06/2020 08:56

But homosexuality isn't a mental illness. Are you saying that being trans is?

BaronessBrighterThanYou · 27/06/2020 08:59

Growing up as a lesbian I didn't want to believe it..

What is "it"?

You didn't want to believe you were a lesbian?

You didn't want to believe homosexuality was a mental illness?

Beni1993 · 27/06/2020 09:14

It seems that you thing that having gender dysphoria and being transexual are the same thing?

Gender dysphoria is someone who struggles with concept of gender and does not know how they identify. This can lead to depression, mental illness etc. They are not applauded and given surgery...

However, being transexual means that you identify as the opposite sex to what you were assigned at birth. This is not a psychiatric issue, so it is not treated as one. Rightly so, it is applauded and celebrated.

SapphosRock · 27/06/2020 09:24

BaronessBrighterThanYou I didn't want to believe homosexuality was a mental illness, but I was made to feel like it was. It was strongly suggested to me it could be 'cured' through prayer.

Beni1993 I didn't realise being transsexual was applauded and celebrated? By who?

NotBadConsidering · 27/06/2020 09:43

Sapphos, rather than making it all about you, and changing the topic completely, do you have anything to say about

and steered away from modifying their body. They are not immediately affirmed, applauded by their friends and sent for surgery. BDD is the same.
I am really struggling with the difference between this and gender dysphoria, can anyone, esp with a psychiatry background explain please?

SapphosRock · 27/06/2020 09:54

NotBadConsidering simply put if enough people experience something outside the norm then it's logical it will be acknowledged by society and provisions will be made for these people. Such as religion, being gay or being trans.

Not enough people experience identifying as an amputee for it to be acknowledged as a condition. If more than 1% of the population did then I am sure provisions would be made for these people in some way.

NotBadConsidering · 27/06/2020 10:01

If enough people want their healthy arms or legs cut off, then doctors will start doing it?

So your answer as to why they’re treated differently is “numbers”?

Words fail me 😆. You’re so transparent, increasingly so. Cheers Sapphos!

SapphosRock · 27/06/2020 10:03

NotBadConsidering yeah probably if enough people campaigned for it. Nowt as queer as folk.

NotBadConsidering · 27/06/2020 10:10

😆😆😆 whatever. Keep going Sapphos.

OldCrone · 27/06/2020 10:12

@SapphosRock

NotBadConsidering simply put if enough people experience something outside the norm then it's logical it will be acknowledged by society and provisions will be made for these people. Such as religion, being gay or being trans.

Not enough people experience identifying as an amputee for it to be acknowledged as a condition. If more than 1% of the population did then I am sure provisions would be made for these people in some way.

Do you think these 'provisions' would / should be psychological treatment and an investigation into why so many people have suddenly started feeling like this, or an increase in surgeons and hospitals where the amputations can be carried out?
SapphosRock · 27/06/2020 10:24

OldCrone there is obviously a perceived benefit for people who want to change gender which I can understand more than the perceived benefit of removing ones limbs.

In the video I shared earlier the trans woman described being trans like being born right handed but being forced to use your left hand. Unnatural. Could you empathise with that? I could.

I find it a lot harder to empathise with someone wanting to remove a healthy limb.

Beni1993 · 27/06/2020 10:27

@SapphosRock

BaronessBrighterThanYou I didn't want to believe homosexuality was a mental illness, but I was made to feel like it was. It was strongly suggested to me it could be 'cured' through prayer.

Beni1993 I didn't realise being transsexual was applauded and celebrated? By who?

@SapphosRock Hmm are you okay? Applauded and celebrated by hundreds of thousands of people in the LGBTQ+ community. We applaud to show our solidarity, strength and love in supporting people who have struggled and fought to be able to live as they want. We celebrate every time laws are changed, and of course pride month as just a couple of examples hun Smile !!
NotBadConsidering · 27/06/2020 10:30

But what’s the difference?? That was the OP’s question. Your differing level of empathy towards the two different cases doesn’t make them different.

The perceived benefits are the same.

“If you alter my body by removing this limb/removing my penis and testicles my mental health will improve significantly.”

Why is the former deemed regressive but the latter progressive? You’ve said it’s because of numbers.

SonEtLumiere · 27/06/2020 10:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BaronessBrighterThanYou · 27/06/2020 10:40

We do not affirm and validate people who have anorexia by telling them that yes, they are fat and could lose a few more pounds. Not enough of them then? How many would there need to be before we could start that?

How many people are trans vs how many people have anorexia?

Very curious.

Milotic · 27/06/2020 10:44

I dont understand why you keep bringing homosexuality into mental illness.

Homosexuality does not cause one to experience symptoms of a personality disorder. Some people might have said they see it as a mental illness.

You cannot say the same for what trans is today. A LOT of their behaviour DOES match a severe identity disorder which in the interest of their own safety should be investigated and treated accordingly.

Swipe left for the next trending thread