If someone identifies as an amputee they are given psychological help

[gardenbird48]

and steered away from modifying their body. They are not immediately affirmed, applauded by their friends and sent for surgery. BDD is the same.
I am really struggling with the difference between this and gender dysphoria, can anyone, esp with a psychiatry background explain please?

Post op trans people can still live normal, healthy lives and any hormones or surgery will not leave them severely compromised

Taking the wrong hormones for your body and having a double mastectomy or a castration will leave you severely compromised. In what world would the loss of fertility not be a severe compromising of your life chances and that's before you consider the impact of the wrong hormones on the rest of the body.

As for the appeal of wanting to be female- it may well be appealing but it's not possible if you are not female so a healthy mind would set that to one side and work on being the person you want to be within the body you've been given.

And I find it equally understand why someone would want to be female or blind

You are honestly saying that being born female is as much of a disadvantage as being born blind?

Binterested Making oneself voluntarily infertile is something many people of sound mind do. People get tubes tied and have vasectomies all the time. It is nowhere near as drastic as making oneself voluntarily blind.

Given a choice female or blind I would take female, but actively choosing either ? No thanks

So there are absolutely no parallels between gay people and transgender people but there are parallels between transgender people and a woman who deliberately blinded herself with drain cleaner?

This is obvious, but I'll spell it out again. There is no parallel between gay people and transgender people because gay people are simply people who are same-sex attracted and do not require body modifications. Transgender people think there is something wrong with their body which needs modification, similar to people who want to be blind/ have a limb amputated/ be paralysed. What is the difference in your mind between a man who wants his penis removed because he thinks he shouldn't have a penis and a man who wants a limb removed because he thinks he shouldn't have that limb?

Difference 1: Being transgender is not a disability. Post op trans people can still live normal, healthy lives and any hormones or surgery will not leave them severely compromised.

Children who are treated with hormone blockers during puberty followed by cross sex hormones will be sterile and will have no normal sexual function. Most people would consider their condition as 'severely compromised'.

Difference 2: Being transgender is a rare but recognised condition that around 1% of the population have. The women who wanted to be blind is surely a unique case.

What is 'being transgender? Is it suffering from gender dysphoria or the entire Stonewall trans umbrella? You say it is a 'condition'. What sort of condition? An illness? Or what?

Difference 3: It is not hard for most people to understand the appeal of wanting to be female. It is hard to understand the appeal of wanting to be blind.

Since women are generally treated worse than men in society, what is the appeal of 'wanting to be female'? Since people can't change sex, what does this say about the male people who want to be female and won't accept that it's not possible to change sex?

Making oneself voluntarily infertile is something many people of sound mind do. People get tubes tied and have vasectomies all the time

Once they have had their children. You literally cannot get sterilised at a young age if you have not had children - women are denied this often even if they have been committed to remaining childless for years. The idea that ordinary family planning is anything close to gender reassignment surgery which has as a side effect the permanent destruction of fertility is ludicrous.

OldCrone thanks for the reply. I do find the different perspectives fascinating. I can't answer all your questions as I'm off to bed but quickly.

There is a reason I could easily get sterilized by a doctor tomorrow but could not find one to blind me. There is a difference between body autonomy and self harm.

There is also a reason LGBT have been grouped together, I know it's a contentious issue but I'm not the only one to see the parallels.

You may be surprised how hard it is for a woman to get sterilised should you try! Partly because many doctors do see it as maiming a healthy body

There is a reason I could easily get sterilized by a doctor tomorrow but could not find one to blind me. There is a difference between body autonomy and self harm.

That wasn't the two situations I asked you about though. Isn't the removal of healthy breasts (in a woman) or removal of a healthy penis (in a man) a form of self harm? Or do you view these as bodily autonomy? If so, what is the difference between these and removal of a limb or blinding someone? Either they are all self harm or none of them are.

Sapphos has posted one video of one person for whom surgery made them happier. So here are several videos and articles of several people for whom surgery ruined their life.

m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=IdxrJ5ImUnM

www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/transgender-woman-says-surgery-ruined-15619552

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/feb/03/experience-i-regret-transitioning

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5191129/Transgender-woman-castrated-botched-surgery-NHS.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7876747/Academic-gruelling-sex-swap-surgery-changed-mind-minute.html

So if we are talking “numbers”, I have found 5 people with a quick google search whose lives were ruined to Sapphos’s 1, so by Sapphos’s Rule Of Numbers making it relevant the ratio of people whose lives are ruined compared to those who are happier is 5:1. Obviously this is valid because Sapphos has been asked for “evidence” that people are happier and single anecdotes seem to count.

Archie Cochrane would be proud I’m sure.

But don’t worry, I’m sure Sapphos will be along in a minute to say these videos don’t count or that Sapphos has some more “evidence” from the Qatari Journal of Gay Conversion Therapy to prove otherwise, and Sapphos will not admit that the evidence of happiness post-surgery is poor and doesn’t indicate good outcomes because that would mean Sapphos is in agreement with the thread, and it’s clear Sapphos likes to be in disagreement with the threads Sapphos is on, regardless of topic.

*note: just google “trans surgery ruined life” if you want to find endless accounts that I couldn’t be bothered copying and pasting links to all, would have taken too long.

It is not hard for most people to understand the appeal of wanting to be female. It is hard to understand the appeal of wanting to be blind

You can't identify any appeal of being blind?

If I was blind, I could have a guide dog - I like dogs. I'd get an assistant at work. I'd probably get some form of financial disability allowance. I'd have access to a new community of other blind people. I'd be special, different, people would listen to my experience of the world.

Is all of the above true? Just about. Does it fundamentally misunderstand what it is to be blind? Well, I'm not blind, but yes, clearly it does.

And just to ensure my point is absolutely obvious: wanting to be female does not equate to understanding what it is to be female.

OP - your original question is a really interesting one which I have looked up myself and found a lack of answer or debate.

I struggle to understand how anybody could want to remove healthy breasts or a penis.

The way I reconcile it with myself is I'd rather. a trans woman felt able to be herself and live as a trans woman rather than try and live as a man. The trans widows threads show what happens when trans women try and suppress their identity as live as men. It never ends well.

If I could choose for a trans woman to have surgery as a young adult or continue to live as a man and marry a poor unsuspecting woman, I'd choose for her to have the surgery.

To the OP I am a psychiatrist and I don't know the answer.
They seem the same to me.

Body dysmorphic disorder, anorexia, being transgender all involve having false beliefs about your body (overvalued ideas technically). Why the treatment for one is alleged to be surgery and for the others is psychotherapy to come to terms with/ change your beliefs which are recognised as having an origin in trauma I do not know.

Obviously not all psychiatrists would agree with me but I think many would it's just we would not be allowed to say so.

It's pretty niche stuff and not the kind of thing you get referred every day (or didn't used to be) so if any ever came my way I would do as I was required to do and exclude any obvious psychosis (ie thinking you are Jesus) and then just nod and smile at the stories of always playing with Barbie dolls as a kid and make a referral to a specialist service where I trusted that appropriate counselling would be available. The massive waiting list and requirement to live in the desired gender for at least a year tended to put people off and give a much needed breathing space for changing ones mind I felt. I do not feel that a speeded up process is a good idea at all. What some describe as 'barriers' and 'red tape' others might see as appropriate caution when considering life changing irreversible surgery or to a lesser extent hormone therapy.

The one post op MtF transsexual person I encountered professionally had huge regrets and continued to be just as unhappy and to make just as many suicide attempts after surgery as before but I don't take that anecdote as evidence. Obviously I did not see the happy people on an inpatient psych ward just as I doubt the unhappy people make BBC videos about how shit they still feel. hence nothing can be concluded either way from anecdotes or indeed surveys unless care is taken to avoid bias ie a properly conducted prospective trial is done.

The two identifying as female by wearing an M&S cardie with no intention of surgery people I have come across appeared to fit diagnostic criteria for personality disorder. Again this may or may not have been a coincidence but one of the diagnostic criteria for borderline PD is an unstable sense of identity so it appears clear to me that there would be some overlap.

I had a patient who had conversion disorder: was convinced she was blind (in one eye) despite evidence to the contrary. She got a big badge, special glasses, got a stick even, everyone moved heaven and earth to help her. It was very rewarding for her. They were going to give her a dog, worth several thousand dollars, and I had to tell them not to. With therapy it improved. Stick and badge gone. Doesn’t even wear glasses. Once there was no gain from it the condition didn’t continue.

Conversion disorder is a fascinating parallel.

I struggle to understand how anybody could want to remove healthy breasts or a penis.

So are you now agreeing that it's no different from wanting to remove a healthy limb or be blinded?

The way I reconcile it with myself is I'd rather. a trans woman felt able to be herself and live as a trans woman rather than try and live as a man.

How do you define 'living as a man/woman'? I asked you this earlier and you didn't reply. How would I live differently if I wanted to 'live as a man'? (I'm a woman).

The trans widows threads show what happens when trans women try and suppress their identity as live as men. It never ends well.

If you've actually read those threads you'll know that it doesn't end well for their wives and children when those men decide to 'live as a woman'.

If I could choose for a trans woman to have surgery as a young adult or continue to live as a man and marry a poor unsuspecting woman, I'd choose for her to have the surgery.

Most of these men seem to have been perfectly happy living as men (with or without a bit of cross dressing) until they're middle aged.

I have also known one person who 'identified as blind' (without going to the trouble of the bleach she just essentially pretended).

In her case it was indeed the 'sick role' that she enjoyed. She had the dark glasses, white stick, guide dog, people helping her across the road, talking books, DLA. It's quite a 'cool' disability in some ways (never met anyone faking wanting a stoma let's put it that way)

It's not at all as uncommon as you'd think to want to be disabled in some conscious or unconscious way eg conversion disorder.

The treatment is psychotherapy.

Sappho- what if you could choose for the person to have good quality psychotherapy and then realise that they did not in fact need surgery and they could be happy being a non gender conforming person in their own body?

That's what I wish for anyone suffering real gender dysphoria

For those that are in fact sexual fetishists and attention seekers maybe they could just crack on with it in private or with like minded consenting adults like those furry people and adult baby people do.

That's fine, let transwomen live as their perception of a woman, whatever that may be, if it makes them happier. But why must the rest of the world be obliged to live that way, too? Why must everyone else live according to the transwoman's ideas?

Exactly JellySlice - I said exactly the same on Friday at 11.49 so glad you've finally come around to my way of thinking.

ROFL! This has always been the position of the majority of GC posters on FWR, and, AFAI an aware, the majority of GC people.

Live and let live goes both ways. If a man wants to think of himself as a woman, wear clothes that may or may not be associated with women, modify his body to look more feminine, fine crack on. His life, his self-image, his body. But don't expect the rest of the world to collude in this. Don't expect women and children to move over and give up our rights, our safety, our freedom to validate your beliefs.

Which bit exactly of gender critical-ness does Sappho actually disagree with?

Getting very confused now.

thanks for your thoughts and time on this everybody, and interesting to hear from psychiatrists (thank you for that). I think I mentioned Oliver Sacks - how is he regarded in professional circles?@WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee and @NotBadConsidering? His book The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat is fascinating and I will reread to see if there is any more he can add. We haven't yet uncovered any evidence (on this thread) to demonstrate material differences in the psychological conditions mentioned (but a number of personal testimonies that there are none - thank you posters) but I feel that it is very clear that there are no links with being gay, in fact the proponents of trans ideology seems to want to distance itself from homosexuality (the author Owl (or Fox?) said that LGB is deviant(!) and Stonewall senior person can't remember which one tweeted their view that it is transphobic to be same sex attracted) so it is only for the purposes of campaigning and collecting money do the two seem to be linked together.
In many cases the gender dysphoria does seem to be linked to a wider psychological distress and sadly a number of relevant research studies have been shut down by the activists. Interesting that the biggest pressure to shut down research and conversation are the groups that are claiming to be supportive of trans people - are the trans people esp. children that go through surgery just victims of a wider cause? The cannon fodder so to speak? Or are they the cash cow?
It certainly seems like the ones who will benefit the most are the lobby groups themselves (it would be very interesting for the government to do an investigation on the income and outgoings of Stonewall esp seeing as some of it is taxpayers money) medical companies selling the (untested for the purpose) drugs/surgery and the autogynephiles (men) who have no intention of having treatment or surgery but will benefit fully from any change in law....
In response to Sapphos comment "

1. Adult wants to permanently alter their own body - fine. but who should pay for what could be argued is essentially elective surgery?
2. Adult wants everyone in society to recognise their altered body as the opposite sex in every situation - not fine. agree

3. Groups of adults want to promote the idea that an apparently psychological condition should be 'treated' with surgery and hormones esp. in vulnerable people and children - not fine 4. Powerful lobby groups want to change the definition of the sex class of woman to include males - not fine

my research continues, any further thoughts welcome.

Which bit exactly of gender critical-ness does Sappho actually disagree with?

I disagree with the OP's suggestion that body dysphoria is a psychiatric disorder. It's a condition outside the individual's control, much like homosexuality.

I am not critical of gender and gender expressions. I think diversity among humans is wonderful.

I have lots of trans friends, MTF, FTM and non binary and believe their gender identity is a fundamental part of themselves, the same as my sexual orientation of a fundamental part of who I am.

I enjoy being part of the LGBT community and sharing inclusive spaces with my trans siblings.

Do I think trans women are women? No.

So to be a psychiatric disorder, it has to be inside the person’s control? Like schizophrenia, anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder?

What exactly are you implying here Sapphos? (This time 🙄)

schizophrenia, anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder... can all be treated with medication.

Gender dysphoria and homosexuality cannot.