Be an ally to lesbians: stop using LGBTQ+

[Shedbuilder]

I'm a lesbian and I mentally parted company with Stonewall and began opposing it and a lot of other LGB organisations when they added the T and then the Q and then all the other identity letters to the original LGB.

LGB people are united by same-sex attraction. TQ and whatever are linked by their insistence on identity — defining themselves by feelings or whatever. LGB people are united by their experience of homophobia. Transgenderism, and its attack on sex, is inherently homophobic. The two cannot and could never exist comfortably together. As soon as Stonewall added the T to their constituency, it began working against its core community.

Stonewall and other organisations have done this by force. Uncoupling the LGB from the TQ+ is one of the most important things anyone with a GC stance can do.

Please, let us work towards making the letters LGBTQ+ a badge of ignorance and shame, not something that employers should be plastering everywhere as proof of how progressive they are.

There are 4 of these threads, read them before you decide who is responsible for the safety of AGP men:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee

-Trans women won’t be accepted by a subsection of feminists as ‘women’. They will always be considered men, even when they have transitioned and had surgery. That's because they're still men, no matter how they personally identify.

• Non binary people are not accepted either. You are either a man or a woman. It's not clear what you mean by 'accepted'. But if you're saying that humans are either male or female, you're right.

• the needs and safety of women Is a priority Yes. Feminists prioritise women. The clue's in the name..

• The T and I should be removed from LGBTI as they shouldn’t be embraced by the LGB community Noone has said anything about the I, but as LGB are sexualities it probably doesn't fit.

• nobody is considering the needs and safety of trans or non binary people. It's not the job of feminists to do so, unless the people you're talking about are women.

The I is a group of health conditions - why add them to political lobby for same sex attracted sexual orientations or people with a cross sex gender identity?

mrkhvoice.com/index.php/2019/08/07/theres-no-i-in-lgbt/

Thanks Thisismytimetoshine I'll
Take that as a compliment.

Any lesbians who are genuinely interested, Mint events hold really good lesbian and bi nights in London (when we're not in lockdown). I've already shared the online community lesbian group with the OP. There are lots of great lesbian spaces around if you look for them.

I don't know why anyone is surprised that butch older lesbians aren't always welcome in gay bars. There have always been misogynistic gay men around, so women have always had to pick their gay bar carefully. And as some of you may be starting to realise, the gay universe has seen an explosion in drag queens and transgender people and cross-dressers and kinksters. So when me and my partner and maybe a couple of friends walk into a gay pub or bar, in our 50s, no make-up, short hair, jeans and t-shirts, we are often read correctly as lesbian feminists. In some bars we might be greeted warmly, but there have been instances where we've had one drink and left because the drag queens and transwomen staring at us and noting our lack of rainbow badges and pastel hair etc has felt very uncomfortable.

Perhaps there are small local bars where the same clientele has been going for years and where maybe things haven't changed, but now that trans and kink and drag is out and proud you'll find more lesbians over the age of 30 choosing to meet in a Wetherspoons than a gay pub/ bar. It feels safer.

Oh Shed, you said in your OP you want to work to make LGBTQ a badge of ignorance and shame. You want the T and Q to detach from LGBTQ. Are you surprised that T and Q people in LGBTQ spaces may look at you warily?

Sappho, that's not a lesbian bar — not like the Glass Bar or the Candy Bar used to be, a place open every night of the week for lesbians. And it says quite clearly that it's LBT+. So it's not even a women's event, let alone a lesbian one.

Oh, I miss the Glass Bar....

How would I know if a "Q" person was looking at me at all, never mind "warily"?

People talk some shite here.

The Glass Bar’s building was marvellous (I remember admiring it at the time but not actually going because - straight 😂)

nobody is considering the needs and safety of trans or non binary people.

Whose job do you think that is?

Love to know the answer to that.

@Shedbuilder

No lesbian bars left in London. Gay bars in Canal Street and a couple I've seen in Cardiff not welcoming to GC lesbians. Incidents documented of women being abused and ejected because they are deemed not to be trans friendly simply because of the way they look. I'm an older butch lesbian and I've spent some time in gay bars. If you like drinking/ socialising while drag queens and transwomen glare at you then I guess they are friendly places.

Honestly think that those of you who ventured into a gay bar a few times 10-15 years ago need to try again now before you generalise.

Yes - thanks ShedBuilder - that was what lesbian friends were telling me recently, tbh.

I was in a long marriage (to a man) then moved overseas, so I'm well out of the loop.

That sounds a bit shit, quite honestly. Hope it swings back a bit before dd1 is off to Uni, which will be probably in the UK.

All the good lesbian and women only meet-ups are being pushed underground again.

Not acceptable really, but gives a cool edge that can't be found in commercial forced environments.

You are either a man or a woman.

I don't think this is controversial!

@Ereshkigalangcleg

You are either a man or a woman.

I don't think this is controversial!

It usen't to be...

May those heady days come again!

I think they will Thisismytime.

Lesbian and Bi women are always going to exist.

Women (of all sexualities) are always going to need spaces away from men.

The internet has given so many people the false sense that everyone is, or must be the same.

We are not.

Yeah true the Candy Bar was a good laugh but it was always open to men too and straight people.

Since the Equality Act it's not been legal to make bars gay only or female only.

It is legal to make events designed to attract lesbians over trans and queer though, which is what Mint events is doing.

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong

Another point is, by trying to exclude people who are trans there is actually a fair amount of shooting selves in feet that is going on.

Dropping the T Is not outright excluding ‘people who are trans’ though - it’s excluding male people who are attracted to female people (heterosexual men) and vice versa.

Female people attracted to female people are included under the L or the B, unless they choose to self exclude by prioritising their cross sex identity OVER their same sex attracted orientation (ie, identifying as a heterosexual man)

To my mind there shouldn't be a '20 questions, answer them right and you're in' policy.

Many people in our communities have very complex, intersectional, shifting understandings of their identities that they find hard to articulate and express.

Not every 16 year old who is confused about who they are - if they're just attracted to women, or feel more strongly they have a male identity, is sitting in their bedroom out there thinking, 'ok they hate the trans people that have been born as boys, but they're ok with me as I have a female body at the moment...but they might hate me if I talk about that too much, so I'll just be careful what I say and I'll probably be welcome'.

They're just seeing the general hostility and slogans and worried that they will be the next ones on the receiving end. So they don't come to the spaces where they might get to have those conversations that might help them consider more fully their determination to have surgery. They are the ones that losing out from these divisive tactics.

Yeah, I'm seeing a fair bit of 'hostility and slogans' that could definitely be off putting if you were a 16yo lesbian.

Not from lesbians, though.

It is the LGBTQ community framing everything and everyone as hate, including your own parents if they have a different view to the affirmation only industry.

This is some disengenuous bullshit to reframe this as hate from lesbians who can see a man when he's standing right there.

@FantaOra

It is the LGBTQ community framing everything and everyone as hate, including your own parents if they have a different view to the affirmation only industry.

This is some disengenuous bullshit to reframe this as hate from lesbians who can see a man when he's standing right there.

Oh yes. I've been accused of hate for not welcoming my niece's transition. For being concerned about the harm she may experience from her binder, cross-sex hormones and eventual double mastectomy.

I hate (ironically) the way the word hate is used for every instance of disagreement these days.

This is my opinion, disagreeing with me is hate. Not a difference of opinion, just hate.
Try and turn it back on them, though, by asking why they can freely disagree with your perfectly valid opinion and prepare to be skewered.

Well the only way to get around perceptions of hatred is by opening conversations and trying to set tones that are not too devisive. It's the polarisation of ideologies, it's the 'us and them' language that fuels perceptions of hatred.

It's the way things are expressed that influences this too:

If I was to encourage a young person to talk freely and openly to me without fear of judgement and then I was in a position to say 'I think I understand what you're feeling a bit because I've felt similar at times in my life. I'm a bit concerned about you though, as surgery is very serious and it is the case that some people regret that in time and I don't want you to be in that position in the future. Have you considered....blah blah

... I don't think that young person is going to accuse me of hatred. Because I'm going to navigate that conversation carefully and respectfully.

If on the other hand, I made it clear I was already very dismissive of their thoughts, immediately shouted down what they had to say, told them that they were mutilating their bodies, undermining women everywhere by their choice, and that I would never use their chosen name or pronouns to refer to them...

..yeah...I might get accused of hatred.

Now with the first option I might help a young person to consider alternatives to surgery (or that might not be the outcome, and I would respect that too). But with the 2nd option I have absolutely no chance with them at all - I have set myself against them, they are not going to be open to what I have to say.

And if I give them the impression (rightly or wrongly) that they are not welcome under my umbrella anyway, well those conversations just don't happen altogether.

Another completely disingenuous post 🤷🏻‍♀️