Be an ally to lesbians: stop using LGBTQ+

[Shedbuilder]

I'm a lesbian and I mentally parted company with Stonewall and began opposing it and a lot of other LGB organisations when they added the T and then the Q and then all the other identity letters to the original LGB.

LGB people are united by same-sex attraction. TQ and whatever are linked by their insistence on identity — defining themselves by feelings or whatever. LGB people are united by their experience of homophobia. Transgenderism, and its attack on sex, is inherently homophobic. The two cannot and could never exist comfortably together. As soon as Stonewall added the T to their constituency, it began working against its core community.

Stonewall and other organisations have done this by force. Uncoupling the LGB from the TQ+ is one of the most important things anyone with a GC stance can do.

Please, let us work towards making the letters LGBTQ+ a badge of ignorance and shame, not something that employers should be plastering everywhere as proof of how progressive they are.

I very much doubt many on this board have ever had any sort of contact with trans people either

You must be very new, Billi? Otherwise you would know this board is populated by lots of women who have children who identify as trans, and lots of women who have been married to middle aged male transitioners.

Stick around, you might learn something!.

When these young trans people are welcomed into broader groups that include lesbians they can talk in more detail about their feelings and worries and listen to how older people have navigated perhaps similar difficulties without having surgery.

And

It's useful for people to know that if they change their mind about transitioning that there is someone they can talk to.

These are great points. I hadn't thought about this before but I recently talked a female, non binary acquaintance out of having top surgery.
If lesbians bugger off and do their own thing they're not around to be positive role models.

Another point is, by trying to exclude people who are trans there is actually a fair amount of shooting selves in feet that is going on.

Dropping the T Is not outright excluding ‘people who are trans’ though - it’s excluding male people who are attracted to female people (heterosexual men) and vice versa.

Female people attracted to female people are included under the L or the B, unless they choose to self exclude by prioritising their cross sex identity OVER their same sex attracted orientation (ie, identifying as a heterosexual man)

That's correct DuDuDu. Well said.

There is an obsession on this thread, from a few, as to why same sex attracted can't organise themselves?

I'm same sex attracted and manage to organise myself and my fellow lesbians perfectly well without the help of straight women telling me how to do it properly.

Id suggest not attempting to put words in my mouth sapphos

I keep my trap shut a lot on here as i read and absorb more than you’d think

And I intend keeping it that way

From my very limited experience of gay bars (which is this one...and relies on my children talking about it) they are very welcoming to everyone however they present and whatever their sexuality

I also believe that for SOME people sexuality is fluid...I’m fairly positive that dd is straight, and she’s confirmed it. But it might Be that she just hasn’t met the right woman yet.

I wonder if some of the posters on this thread even know what AGP is...

As to what my credentials are for being invested in this particular discussion:

One of my daughters is same sex attracted. I advocate on her behalf, and on behalf of other girls and women who want and are entitled to female-only spaces.

As others have already stated, being female and straight is not the be all and end all of my experience and my ability to view things on a higher level and hence to advocate on behalf of the best interests of women in any number of situations in any number of circumstances is not directly informed by my own personal experience, nor by what does or doesn’t affect me personally.

Examples:

I have not been raped. I have no trauma related to men. I personally would not find it difficult to be examined by a male doctor. I can still grasp that other women have very good reasons not to want men in their personal space unless they have been specifically invited in.

I am not religious. I am not required by my faith or by cultural customs and mores to keep myself separate from men. I can still understand that for many women it is imperative that they have female-only spaces available to them.

I will never be a victim of FGM. Neither will my daughters. That does not mean that I can’t know with complete conviction that it is wrong. Hence I will fight and advocate and protest on behalf of those girls and women whose bodies are mutilated.

There are many, many more examples. But that gives you an idea. I find the notion that one should only worry about or agitate against things that directly affect oneself a very shortsighted and selfish one.

Oopsie

And of course im pleased if dd makes new friends

I like making new friends 😀

I'm same sex attracted and manage to organise myself and my fellow lesbians perfectly well without the help of straight women telling me how to do it properly.

You do remember that this isn’t your thread though, Sapphos? The OP specifically requested support from GC people in uncoupling the LGB from the TQ.

Fair enough you don’t want that, but Shedbuilder does, so why are you denouncing ‘straight women’ when women (straight or otherwise) were never rallying to YOUR request in the first place?

From my very limited experience of gay bars (which is this one...and relies on my children talking about it) they are very welcoming to everyone however they present and whatever their sexuality

Yep Rufus nail on the head there. So please forgive me if I feel overly protective of these spaces and don't support divisiveness among all the people who use and enjoy them.

*Another point is, by trying to exclude people who are trans there is actually a fair amount of shooting selves in feet that is going on.

Correct me if I'm wrong but there is a lot of concern that trans teens are electing to undergo surgeries that they might later come to regret. Who do you think it is that can give them a broader context to their experiences? Who can empathise with their feelings and gently nudge them to consider other alternatives?*

You make it sound as if trans people would be sent to a gulag when the LGB separates from the T, which is ridiculous. Life would go on for trans teens and adults as normal. It would simply be that in the public consciousness LGB and T would be seen as separate. Possibly more of the public would understand that LGB and T are fundamentally incompatible.

Surely it would make sense for the T to bloom independently, free from the critical eye of so many LGB people?

Yes quite. The attempt at cancelling the OP’s thread and her feelings on it which is backed up by the supporting views of other same sex attracted women on this thread and for some reason making this all about straight women, whilst simultaneously blaming the straight women for it, is laughable.

You’re entitled to your opinion. So is @Shedbuilder.

And I am entitled to make my discerning choice as to what side of the line I am on.

So please forgive me if I feel overly protective of these spaces

I can do that

If you can forgive everyone else on here for the same

(I’ll be honest I don’t think anyone cares on here if anyone forgives them...as there is no need of forgiveness for feeling strongly about something)

Surely it would make sense for the T to bloom independently, free from the critical eye of so many LGB people?

Surely if there was an appetite for it then it would happen?

I think there is a very good reason you've started this thread on Mumsnet rather than in an actual lesbian or LGBT group discussion.

Surely if there was an appetite for it then it would happen?

It is happening - hence all the new Trans Pride planning going on. Problem is that separate trans events are seen as fine and separate LGB events are ‘literal violence’.

Why IS it so lopsided?

No lesbian bars left in London. Gay bars in Canal Street and a couple I've seen in Cardiff not welcoming to GC lesbians. Incidents documented of women being abused and ejected because they are deemed not to be trans friendly simply because of the way they look. I'm an older butch lesbian and I've spent some time in gay bars. If you like drinking/ socialising while drag queens and transwomen glare at you then I guess they are friendly places.

Honestly think that those of you who ventured into a gay bar a few times 10-15 years ago need to try again now before you generalise.

@Shedbuilder

No lesbian bars left in London. Gay bars in Canal Street and a couple I've seen in Cardiff not welcoming to GC lesbians. Incidents documented of women being abused and ejected because they are deemed not to be trans friendly simply because of the way they look. I'm an older butch lesbian and I've spent some time in gay bars. If you like drinking/ socialising while drag queens and transwomen glare at you then I guess they are friendly places.

Honestly think that those of you who ventured into a gay bar a few times 10-15 years ago need to try again now before you generalise.

That's awful! I had no idea.

Sounds awful shed

And really not fair

That's awful! I had no idea

I knew about there being no lesbian bars which is awful in and of itsself

But not how some gay women are treated in others

If lesbians bugger off and do their own thing they're not around to be positive role models

Women are positive role models now, teachers, shopworkers, car builders, shed builders, homemakers, volunteers.

Some also happen to be lesbians. It's not a circus act. There is no obligation to say "look at me I'm a lesbian positive role model.Wheel me out for your company photo opportunity." Lesbians are positive role models already, and I'm not talking about the likes of DIVA which is a pure irrelevance to a lot of women.

Being a lesbian doesn't mean that you are on call 24/7 for non lesbians to insist that you: BE A LESBIAN in the interests of the rest of us.

Like some women want to talk about being pregnant with other women who are pregnant. Lesbians talking to lesbians. If they want to. No obligation. Rainbow lanyards optional.

Stop making it a problem.

I'm not straight, but I know some women who are. HtH Sapho

I don't recognise Shed's description of lesbian bars. I seem to be on the mailing list for loads of them, this was the last email I got just before lockdown.

Totally agree most gay bars cater for men but this is a simple case of supply and demand. Most lesbians over the age of 30 tend to stay home with their cats or go round for dinner with their lesbian mates Lorraine and Sandra - and only go out once in a blue moon. Can't expect lesbian venues to stay profitable if they don't have the custom.

@SapphosRock

I don't recognise Shed's description of lesbian bars. I seem to be on the mailing list for loads of them, this was the last email I got just before lockdown.

Totally agree most gay bars cater for men but this is a simple case of supply and demand. Most lesbians over the age of 30 tend to stay home with their cats or go round for dinner with their lesbian mates Lorraine and Sandra - and only go out once in a blue moon. Can't expect lesbian venues to stay profitable if they don't have the custom.

That is an extraordinary post. Quite what I'd expect from you, though...

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong

I very much doubt many on this board have ever had any sort of contact with trans people either

You must be very new, Billi? Otherwise you would know this board is populated by lots of women who have children who identify as trans, and lots of women who have been married to middle aged male transitioners.

Stick around, you might learn something!.

That’s exactly what I’m trying to do, learn something. To summarise what I’ve learned: -Trans women won’t be accepted by a subsection of feminists as ‘women’. They will always be considered men, even when they have transitioned and had surgery.

• Non binary people are not accepted either. You are either a man or a woman.
• the needs and safety of women Is a priority
• The T and I should be removed from LGBTI as they shouldn’t be embraced by the LGB community
• nobody is considering the needs and safety of trans or non binary people.

nobody is considering the needs and safety of trans or non binary people.

Whose job do you think that is?