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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TRA friend and BLM

246 replies

maudavery · 16/06/2020 05:55

I have a very woke friend, she has always been very outspoken on the trans issue but on social media she is surprisingly quiet at the minute, perhaps because JKR has made such brilliant points that it is difficult to argue against. So instead she has been posting a lot about BLM, trying to “educate” her white friends (she is white) about racism and recommend lots of reading. It is normal during this reading to feel defensive and uncomfortable she says. She invites us to DM her so that we can talk about these feelings. She doesn’t intend to sounds preachy and self righteous. She has then listed about 50 forms of covert white supremacy. Some of them I am aware of eg white hero complex, after the Stacey Dooley affair, (but then I wonder, is my friend not demonstrating this herself in her incessant drive to educate others about racism on behalf of people of a different race?)

I always thought not being racist was fairly straightforward- judge people by the content of the character, not the colour of their skin. But apparently this is no longer the case. I need to educate myself (I read very widely and have always read a lot of books by BAME authors, but she is recommending non fiction on the issue of race itself). I’m struggling with it to be honest. “White silence” is a covert act of white supremacy but then because there are seemingly an infinite amount of ways I can be covertly racist, no wonder people are silent because there are so many Microaggressions and covert forms of racism that to say anything at all is risky. (Eg it is racist to tell a black person they are “articulate”) But silence is violence. I just think the whole thing is authoritarian and intolerant the same way that “transwomen are women” is. And if I were to come out as GC on social media, which I have not been brave enough to do yet, then she would dismiss me as a terf and ergo because I don’t sign up to the package deal of the extreme left, I’m probably racist too.

For the record, I work at an outstanding inner city school with a high amount of BAME students. Day in and day out For the last 5 years I have built up relationships with kids of all backgrounds and led my department so that the students achieve excellent academic outcomes. I have diversified the curriculum, but I have also tried to change the curriculum to ensure it is academically challenging and gives our students the “cultural capital” that their more advantaged peers take for granted. I think this is a more meaningful demonstration of my own antiracism than posting a black square on my Instagram, but the former is me being a “white saviour” while the latter is “violence” through silence.

I think black lives matter, I understand why “all lives matter” is wrong, but at the same time, BLM as a political movement is something I cannot support - it’s aims are the end of the nuclear family, the defunding of the police and the overthrowing of capitalism. I also think the conflation of race with certain political beliefs is problematic in itself - a point Priti Patel made well I thought the other day - (although I am not a fan of hers AT ALL) but she seems to have shut down for not being the right kind of race or not having had the right experienced racism - which is surely racist in itself? I was horrified and sickened by the murder of George Floyd. I do not feel personally responsibility or guilt for it though which apparently makes me a racist monster.

I’m wondering if i should engage in a dialogue with my friend about this as she has invited this but wonder if it wouldn’t end well.

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MsSafina · 20/06/2020 20:46

@TheRealMcKenna.
"We are trained Marxists.". I'm betting she hasn't read Marx's disparaging comments about "negroes.". In fact, I'm willing to bet she hasn't read many Marxist texts at all. Someone should take her up on it and have a one to one on Marxist theory on YouTube.

TheRealMcKenna · 20/06/2020 21:19

@MsSafina none of this makes any sense at all. It seems like the aim of the entire organisation is to tear society apart and then rebuild it as some sort of ‘utopia’. That’s worked very well in the past, hasn’t it?

As far as November’s election is concerned, it’s still a long way off. Such a lot can and will happen between now and then. The country currently seems to be ripping itself apart, but it wasn’t exactly in a particularly healthy state to begin with. It doesn’t help that Biden is not exactly in the best cognitive condition.

Meanwhile, I have just seen some horrible reports coming out of Reading which is very near to where I live....

Awful times...

MsSafina · 20/06/2020 22:32

Marx supported abolition (of course) but he said "negroes" could not be properly emancipated because they were illiterate and ignorant and, therefore, not a driving force for the overthrow of the Capitalist system. He and Engels believed that Germans were superior and because they had the most advanced proletarian class, which was true, that the revolution would happen first in Germany. They didn't believe that peasants were capable of organising or overthrowing capitalism. The opposite to what they believed happened, in Russia which had a feudal system and in China which also had a feudal system. This is all the information you need to prove that Marxism as written by the two theorists is a crock.

MsSafina · 20/06/2020 22:39

And of course, the great Proletarian revolution in Germany never happened but something much worse which was Fascist Germany. Hey! My history lessons are for free and I've read a lot of Marxist texts in my youth!

MsSafina · 20/06/2020 22:43

I would like to see BLM debate surplus value Marxist theory on YouTube. See how they get on.

TheRealMcKenna · 20/06/2020 23:28

@MsSafina My degree is in engineering, which is no way near as complicated and difficult to understand as modern social justice theory.

What do you think to James Lindsay?

TheRealMcKenna · 20/06/2020 23:36

I’d also like to see BLM justify their approval for Maduro, given Venezuela’s appalling record for death’s in police custody and the organisation’s supposed commitment to acting against police corruption.

Goosefoot · 21/06/2020 03:14

I genuinely don't know where things move on front this point without thought about these issues. Nothing will change.

This is where it becomes clear that the idea that BLM and CRT are some sort of Marxist plot doesn't hold water. They are in no way oriented toward creating any kind of serious critique or challenge to capitalism. On the contrary, they uphold the Thatcherite/Blairite status quo. In the US it's likely to create a significant authoritarian backlash that will have to come from the right as that's the only politics there which has any access to power.

Goosefoot · 21/06/2020 03:19

@MsSafina

Marx supported abolition (of course) but he said "negroes" could not be properly emancipated because they were illiterate and ignorant and, therefore, not a driving force for the overthrow of the Capitalist system. He and Engels believed that Germans were superior and because they had the most advanced proletarian class, which was true, that the revolution would happen first in Germany. They didn't believe that peasants were capable of organising or overthrowing capitalism. The opposite to what they believed happened, in Russia which had a feudal system and in China which also had a feudal system. This is all the information you need to prove that Marxism as written by the two theorists is a crock.
I don't think this says much against Marx one way or the other - a bunch of intellectual/political types tried to direct the (righteous) discontent of the peasants to create a revolution Marx said wouldn't happen that way, and it didn't.
Ginnyhip46 · 21/06/2020 07:23

"I just think the whole thing is authoritarian and intolerant the same way that “transwomen are women” is. And if I were to come out as GC on social media, which I have not been brave enough to do yet, then she would dismiss me as a terf and ergo because I don’t sign up to the package deal of the extreme left, I’m probably racist too."

OP, I am a Woman of Colour (very nice brown colour) and I agree with you. You would be called all sorts of names. I'm afraid that no one has ever listened to me when I say "I experience racism AND misogyny in exactly the same way,with the same pain and the same abuse so why do women have to fight for people to recognise this?" For me it's double the horror at times especially as men have often seen me as submissive with their eroticised racism and one went as far as to break my leg, something he wouldn't have done if I hadn't been a woman of colour as he kept going on about my race as well as woman - he physically was much stronger than me.

I worked with a sexist guy recently and he couldn't understand that it was not ok to be sexist even though he was proud of being anti racist. Hypocrite.

Your friend sounds like a woke nightmare who is missing the subtleties and they aren't going to equate one with the other. Just unfollow them on FB and you shouldn't see their posts - and then ignore them. I have a friend who I love and adore, she's a well informed Doctor and extremely aware but because she hates JKR because we are in Scotland and she's SNP not Labour, she is very quick to jump on the bandwagon. I must admit I dread her mentioning it which she does and I have to steel myself against it. But I've also noticed that I'm focusing on her because of this dread and it's actually not a good feeling. Let this friend just fade out of your mind of you can and detach. Trust that time will show the people what is really happening and use your energy to support the cause in other ways, that don't make you feel unsafe and more anxious - I my case I would lose my job if I came out as GC. JKR has spoken on behalf of us and she's a Shieldmaiden. Focus energy on the good people and the things we can change.

Ginnyhip46 · 21/06/2020 07:28

Also want to add that most of my white friends turned their profiles black for a day and then forgot about it - just like people were shocked at me too but didn't stop raping people - and for many of us who are WOC it's too little, too late.

Ginnyhip46 · 21/06/2020 07:33

Also also also...... As a working class WOC who grew up in a care home and whose father died in a racist attack, I'm now regarded as more privileged than a middle class white boy in a dress????!!!! Get in the sea Mermaids.

BovaryX · 21/06/2020 07:41

that will have to come from the right as that's the only politics there which has any access to power

That is clearly not true, as recent events demonstrate. US cities, many of which are run by the Democrats, have already committed to 'defund the police.' Including LA. Billionaire tech giants wield considerable power which is trans national. They are all progressives. Power is also in the hands of bloggers, influencers, and Tweeters with millions of followers. This sector is also dominated by 'progressives' who have progressed way beyond the point of tolerating dissenting opinions. The 'power' on campus? Take a look at Evergreen. Imagine coming out as a Conservative academic or student on either side of the Atlantic. The establishment is progressive.

BaronessBrighterThanYou · 21/06/2020 07:41

OP - you say: **

So instead she has been posting a lot about BLM, trying to “educate” her white friends (she is white)..

Does she herself have any BAME friends and if so have any of them commented on her recent flurry of activity?

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 21/06/2020 20:56

Also also also...... As a working class WOC who grew up in a care home and whose father died in a racist attack, I'm now regarded as more privileged than a middle class white boy in a dress????!!!! Get in the sea Mermaids.

Thinking of you on Fathers Day, Ginnyhip46 Flowers

MsSafina · 22/06/2020 13:22

There has been much talk of institutional racism. I would like the institutions to be named and concrete evidence provided to show how they are racist.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 22/06/2020 13:31

Also also also...... As a working class WOC who grew up in a care home and whose father died in a racist attack, I'm now regarded as more privileged than a middle class white boy in a dress????!!!! Get in the sea Mermaids.

It really is ridiculous, isn't it? Class analysis for dummies would be the generous take, I suppose. I'm not that generous.

SerenityNowwwww · 22/06/2020 13:48

@Ginnyhip46

Also also also...... As a working class WOC who grew up in a care home and whose father died in a racist attack, I'm now regarded as more privileged than a middle class white boy in a dress????!!!! Get in the sea Mermaids.
Flowers Cake

what a bloody world, eh?

terryleather · 22/06/2020 16:55

This might be of interest to pps on the thread, it's Ayishat Akanbi with the Triggernometry guys - never heard of AA before but really liked what she had to say.

DidoLamenting · 22/06/2020 17:05

This is where it becomes clear that the idea that BLM and CRT are some sort of Marxist plot doesn't hold water. They are in no way oriented toward creating any kind of serious critique or challenge to capitalism

How do you work that out? They say themselves they are Marxist and the aim is to dismantle capitalism.

maudavery · 22/06/2020 18:41

Yes i watched Akanbi and thought she was brilliant. I loved what she said about being an "ally"

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maudavery · 22/06/2020 18:43

She also made an interesting point about mental health awareness increasing as trend for "wokeness" grows too. I think this is a fascinating correlation. Someone like Kathryn ecclestone for example has written about the rise of therapeutic education in which young people are constantly told they are
Vulnerable to mh problems which she argues can cause more Harm Than good.

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MsSafina · 22/06/2020 19:08

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/30/why-im-no-longer-talking-to-white-people-about-race

Well I read this and the only concrete example I could see of severe institutional racism was the Stephen Lawrence case back in 1993. The charges of institutional racism are so grave that there must be an investigation and evidence presented. That means facts and statistics which can be backed up.

Goosefoot · 22/06/2020 22:41

@DidoLamenting

This is where it becomes clear that the idea that BLM and CRT are some sort of Marxist plot doesn't hold water. They are in no way oriented toward creating any kind of serious critique or challenge to capitalism

How do you work that out? They say themselves they are Marxist and the aim is to dismantle capitalism.

It's a matter of see what I do, not what I say.

They are shitty Marxists, first of all - identity politics isn't compatible with Marxism. What they talk about is more a kind of anarchism.

These numpties are being used. The vast majority of people who promote and fund and platform BLM aren't Marxist, they are uber-capitalists like the Democrats in the US or the NYT. They like it because it's no real threat to capitalism, it focuses people on identity rather than poverty or exploitation, it separates classes who might otherwise come together demanding justice, it allows the to claim fairness so long as the same % of blacks and whites are poor. And even their anarchist talk like getting rid of the police is useful because it scares people which
can make them accept a strong government hand as the safer alternative.

Freespeecher · 22/06/2020 22:52

Their tactics leave me scratching my head - why go for Churchill, who a few years back was voted the 'Greatest Briton' on a TV show? And as for why they're trying to take down a statue of Gandhi...

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