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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TRA friend and BLM

246 replies

maudavery · 16/06/2020 05:55

I have a very woke friend, she has always been very outspoken on the trans issue but on social media she is surprisingly quiet at the minute, perhaps because JKR has made such brilliant points that it is difficult to argue against. So instead she has been posting a lot about BLM, trying to “educate” her white friends (she is white) about racism and recommend lots of reading. It is normal during this reading to feel defensive and uncomfortable she says. She invites us to DM her so that we can talk about these feelings. She doesn’t intend to sounds preachy and self righteous. She has then listed about 50 forms of covert white supremacy. Some of them I am aware of eg white hero complex, after the Stacey Dooley affair, (but then I wonder, is my friend not demonstrating this herself in her incessant drive to educate others about racism on behalf of people of a different race?)

I always thought not being racist was fairly straightforward- judge people by the content of the character, not the colour of their skin. But apparently this is no longer the case. I need to educate myself (I read very widely and have always read a lot of books by BAME authors, but she is recommending non fiction on the issue of race itself). I’m struggling with it to be honest. “White silence” is a covert act of white supremacy but then because there are seemingly an infinite amount of ways I can be covertly racist, no wonder people are silent because there are so many Microaggressions and covert forms of racism that to say anything at all is risky. (Eg it is racist to tell a black person they are “articulate”) But silence is violence. I just think the whole thing is authoritarian and intolerant the same way that “transwomen are women” is. And if I were to come out as GC on social media, which I have not been brave enough to do yet, then she would dismiss me as a terf and ergo because I don’t sign up to the package deal of the extreme left, I’m probably racist too.

For the record, I work at an outstanding inner city school with a high amount of BAME students. Day in and day out For the last 5 years I have built up relationships with kids of all backgrounds and led my department so that the students achieve excellent academic outcomes. I have diversified the curriculum, but I have also tried to change the curriculum to ensure it is academically challenging and gives our students the “cultural capital” that their more advantaged peers take for granted. I think this is a more meaningful demonstration of my own antiracism than posting a black square on my Instagram, but the former is me being a “white saviour” while the latter is “violence” through silence.

I think black lives matter, I understand why “all lives matter” is wrong, but at the same time, BLM as a political movement is something I cannot support - it’s aims are the end of the nuclear family, the defunding of the police and the overthrowing of capitalism. I also think the conflation of race with certain political beliefs is problematic in itself - a point Priti Patel made well I thought the other day - (although I am not a fan of hers AT ALL) but she seems to have shut down for not being the right kind of race or not having had the right experienced racism - which is surely racist in itself? I was horrified and sickened by the murder of George Floyd. I do not feel personally responsibility or guilt for it though which apparently makes me a racist monster.

I’m wondering if i should engage in a dialogue with my friend about this as she has invited this but wonder if it wouldn’t end well.

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hoodathunkit · 02/07/2020 08:45

I would also like to say, for the record, that there are good and bad things about Marxism and Capitalism.

It seems to me that no political system is perfect and that the main problem with both these systems is that power corrupts and that people in control of the system tend to abuse their position.

I do not think that getting rid of the police is helpful. I do not think that a full on revolution is helpful at the best of times and especially not when the country is facing serious challenges relating to a deadly pandemic.

I belive that we need to examine our political system and rethink it, but that this needs to be done with extreme care, not least of all because all manner of new power structures are emerging, most of them extremely sinister. It can be very easy for the collective will for change and liberation to be appropriated by tyrants. Or for well meaning liberatirs to tansform into tyrants. It is a well trodden path and we should beware of radical change at a time of crisis and upheaval.

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hoodathunkit · 02/07/2020 08:40

hoodathunkit thanks for that link - very interesting article.

You're welcome

If you enjoyed that here's some more for your consideration

on Temporary Autonomous Zones (TAZ)

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20190316051751/theanarchistlibrary.org/library/hakim-bey-t-a-z-the-temporary-autonomous-zone-ontological-anarchy-poetic-terrorism" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20190316051751/theanarchistlibrary.org/library/hakim-bey-t-a-z-the-temporary-autonomous-zone-ontological-anarchy-poetic-terrorism

On Hakim Bey's links to various controversial activities and religious movements that some would call cults (there are some fascinating rabbit holes eminating from this of whihc more later) the connection to Hazrat Inayat Khan’s ‘Universal Sufism’ is important as are the use of psychedelics

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200702073624/www.routledgehandbooks.com/doi/10.4324/9781315745916.ch43" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200702073624/www.routledgehandbooks.com/doi/10.4324/9781315745916.ch43

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MsSafina · 02/07/2020 08:36

twitter.com/mtracey/status/1278126025235365888?s=20
So it appears that white leftists Antifa are burning down businesses owned by blacks. These are the type of students who hung around miners and factory workers 40 years ago and failed to impress them and are now hanging around black people.

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MsSafina · 01/07/2020 17:36

I recommend Balzac and the little Chinese seamstress film currently on YouTube about the Cultural Revolution in China in the seventies. All the denouncing, purging and confessions are eerily similar to the current atmosphere.

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TheRealMcKenna · 01/07/2020 15:30

hoodathunkit thanks for that link - very interesting article.

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hoodathunkit · 01/07/2020 12:18

There is the fascinating and disturbing history of the “temporary autonomous zone” as envisioned by the long time NAMBLA member and openly paedophile anarchist Sufi Peter Lamborn Wilson aka Hakim Bey

apologies posted a non-linky link in my above post about this extremely interesting pro-paedophile activist

linky link below

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Lamborn_Wilson

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hoodathunkit · 01/07/2020 10:16

I see that the furious back-pedalling in football is starting to accelerate at pace...

I think it is wonderfulthat football clubs and some cops expressed support for BLM

It shows that people care about equality and racism

I think it is also wonderful that they are reassessing the situation given that the UK BLM is obviously astroturfed.

There should be no shame or embarassment in supporting an anti-racist cause and then withdrawing support for a particular organisation because its agenda was not what you thought it was.

What we have here is the potential for a significant learning curve, provided, as ever, people can stay thinking and not resort to the extremes of pendulum swings (which is about not thinking)

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IrmaFayLear · 01/07/2020 10:13

So if no police, what does law enforcement look like? Or is there no law enforcement? Perhaps no law?

Frankly I can only see one answer: get a gun. And I don’t like that answer at all.

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MsSafina · 01/07/2020 09:07

Thanks. I'll look at that.
A list of businesses and property damaged by rioters in Minneapolis.
m.startribune.com/minneapolis-st-paul-buildings-are-damaged-looted-after-george-floyd-protests-riots/569930671/#:~:text=More%20than%201%2C500%20buildings%20across,been%20destroyed%20completely%20by%20fire

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TheRealMcKenna · 01/07/2020 08:09

What amazes me is the fixation on the colonial period but inability to study the atrocities of all the various communist regimes

There was a very good open letter published in the Spectator yesterday. I will link to it as I assume it’s not behind the paywall. One of the things it lists as a concern is:

An obsessive focus on the impact of colonialism threatens to turn history into a morality tale, rather than a complex, three-dimensional understanding of the past.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/racial-division-is-being-sown-in-the-name-of-anti-racism-it-s-time-to-speak-out

I see that the furious back-pedalling in football is starting to accelerate at pace...

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MsSafina · 30/06/2020 23:00

What amazes me is the fixation on the colonial period but inability to study the atrocities of all the various communist regimes which were largely overthrown. Look at how China is flouting human rights and international law. Marxists are violent people who think everyone else who doesn't agree with them must be interned or killed. It happens over and over every time they come to power.

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MsSafina · 30/06/2020 22:52

@TheRealMcKenna
To date there are 110 shot with 8 dead in Minneapolis and $1 billion of damage since the riots. I read it in their local paper. At the end of the day, people prefer security and safety to radical change. They say they want to overthrow capitalism but don't tell you what is put in its place. I have a distinct feeling they are planning rioting and looting here over the summer and everyone will have to stay quiet in case they're accused of racism.

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MsSafina · 30/06/2020 22:45

As a follower of football, there's a backlash right now among fans who don't like the political objectives of BLM and dislike politics in football. Quite a few are cancelling their Sky subscriptions and saying they're not going to support their clubs anymore. It'll be interesting to see how the big corporate and capitalist clubs and Sky get out of this.

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hoodathunkit · 30/06/2020 21:27

another essential article here

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200630202623/www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/01/russian-trolls-hyped-anger-over-black-lives-matter-more-than-previously-known/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200630202623/www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/01/russian-trolls-hyped-anger-over-black-lives-matter-more-than-previously-known/

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maudavery · 30/06/2020 21:22

Exactly. What is the point of posting this in the feminist thread and to compare anti racists to tras other than to somehow undermine a completely legitimate civil rights movement? I am genuinely at a loss? Yes, white liberals and leftists are performative across the board. That’s not a single issue problem and it has nothing to do with BLM in particular.

Well for me, it was because my friend, who up until recently was very outspoken in favour of transgender rights, very suddenly went silent on that cause and took up this one instead, with equal vigour and veracity which I thought was interesting.

Also more generally it seems to be the woke, extreme left have a common authoritarian and intransigent discourse on both of these
Topics.

And also the two topics themselves have been conflated by BLM which has already been pointed out on this thread.

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hoodathunkit · 30/06/2020 21:21

Very interesting article here about the non-recent astroturfing of BLM

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200630202005/www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/if-russia-can-create-fake-black-lives-matter-accounts-who-will-next/2017/10/15/ffb2e01e-af79-11e7-be94-fabb0f1e9ffb_story.html" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200630202005/www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/if-russia-can-create-fake-black-lives-matter-accounts-who-will-next/2017/10/15/ffb2e01e-af79-11e7-be94-fabb0f1e9ffb_story.html

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hoodathunkit · 30/06/2020 21:00

that video is truly awful. I don’t understand how he can start off talking about defunding the police and then go on to say that the only thing that saved the boys from the football lads alliance was the intervention of the police.

This defund the police thing is straight out of divide and rule

I believe that there are many improvements that could be made to the police but, from my experience, they were massively under-resourced and were struggling to cope before the extra demands placed on them in these days of coronavirus.

Surely one thing that the last 10,000 years of human evolution have taught us is that not having proper order in society results in chaos, violence and the strongest and most ruthless trampling everyone else under foot in their race to grab as many resources as they can.

Our police service definitely has flaws but I feel for decent cops right now as whatever they do people criticise them.

Those who took a knee (a good gesture that diffused things IMO) were criticised by Mail readers who want them to get medieaval on the protesters.

It is a delicate fine line to tread and they are getting criticised from all sides while dodging missiles and getting injured.

It’s a pity that Mike wasn’t aware of yesterday’s revelations that Minneapolis city council are using taxpayer money to fund a private security firm for themselves at the same time that violent crime in the city is out of control.

When people feel they have no recourse to the police, or when there are no police, people turn to priavate law enforcement* to help them.


  • aka organised criminals
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hoodathunkit · 30/06/2020 20:27

Slight tangent but had anyone been keeping up with news from the ‘autonomous zone’ in Seattle?

Thanks for sharing, catching up with it now

The “autonomous zone” thing is interesting to me for a number of reasons.

Other autonomous zones include Transnistria and Christiania in Copenhagen

They are interesting liminal locations and, while there might be some good things about these places they are also a hub for organised crime.

Breakaway and autonomous nations are highly relevant to divide and conquer for obvious reasons.

Also see the old Ealing comedy A Passport for Pimlico

There is the fascinating and disturbing history of the “temporary autonomous zone” as envisioned by the long time NAMBLA member and openly paedophile anarchist Sufi Peter Lamborn Wilson aka Hakim Bey

<a class="break-all" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Lamborn_Wilsonen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Lamborn_Wilson" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Lamborn_Wilsonen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Lamborn_Wilson

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tarkovsky · 30/06/2020 19:31

@TheEmpressMatilda

I’m very, very concerned at the number of threads lately trying to conflate the TRA movement with anti-racism, with the agenda to discredit anti-racism.

Exactly. What is the point of posting this in the feminist thread and to compare anti racists to tras other than to somehow undermine a completely legitimate civil rights movement? I am genuinely at a loss? Yes, white liberals and leftists are performative across the board. That’s not a single issue problem and it has nothing to do with BLM in particular.
No wonder woc like me who are rad-fems often get told we are allying with conservatives/centrists/whoever because radical feminist spaces don’t exist anymore. It’s a gender critical free for all and we have to make do with that. (Not that radical feminist theory isn’t complex and multifaceted in itself and different thinkers didn’t have distinct views; but it is called “radical” feminism for a reason and there is certainly no space in it for any kind of conservatism or even centrism)
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TheRealMcKenna · 30/06/2020 14:28

MsSafina that video is truly awful. I don’t understand how he can start off talking about defunding the police and then go on to say that the only thing that saved the boys from the football lads alliance was the intervention of the police.

It’s a pity that Mike wasn’t aware of yesterday’s revelations that Minneapolis city council are using taxpayer money to fund a private security firm for themselves at the same time that violent crime in the city is out of control.

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MsSafina · 30/06/2020 11:45
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PaleBlueMoonlight · 30/06/2020 11:33

Haven't read the full thread, but in case not mentioned before, Helen Pluckrose is very good on explaining this.

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andyoldlabour · 30/06/2020 11:28

TheRealMcKenna

Is the Event Horizon of deplorableness similar to Purgatory or Hell, because if it is the latter, then as a ginge I am out Grin

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maudavery · 30/06/2020 11:26

*Acknowledging your own racism isn’t about wearing a hair shirt, beating yourself up, wringing your hands and virtue signalling. None of that is any good to anyone.

Acknowledging your racism is about simply having a commitment to supporting oppressed people in a racist society and that means staying thinking, staying communicating and tolerating feeling uncomfortable. *

I agree with this. I think so much of the anti racism we see atm is what your describe in the former paragraph, and that is my frustration. That celeb video "i take responsibility" and "black out Tuesday" seem like the most obvious examples of the vacuous virtue signalling.

There are blatant examples of racism around us- the Enoch Powell example you've given is awful. But I am less convinced that viewing every single "microagrresion" through a lens of race is helpful
Or constructive to anyone. Intent matters, although that doesn't seem to the be the commonly held view among the work left.

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TheRealMcKenna · 30/06/2020 11:07

andyoldlabour I think it’s pretty immaterial. Once you cross the Event Horizon of deplorableness, you are destined to be forever within the singularity of fascism and everyone within its realm is equal. It’s known as a White Hole.

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