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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TRA friend and BLM

246 replies

maudavery · 16/06/2020 05:55

I have a very woke friend, she has always been very outspoken on the trans issue but on social media she is surprisingly quiet at the minute, perhaps because JKR has made such brilliant points that it is difficult to argue against. So instead she has been posting a lot about BLM, trying to “educate” her white friends (she is white) about racism and recommend lots of reading. It is normal during this reading to feel defensive and uncomfortable she says. She invites us to DM her so that we can talk about these feelings. She doesn’t intend to sounds preachy and self righteous. She has then listed about 50 forms of covert white supremacy. Some of them I am aware of eg white hero complex, after the Stacey Dooley affair, (but then I wonder, is my friend not demonstrating this herself in her incessant drive to educate others about racism on behalf of people of a different race?)

I always thought not being racist was fairly straightforward- judge people by the content of the character, not the colour of their skin. But apparently this is no longer the case. I need to educate myself (I read very widely and have always read a lot of books by BAME authors, but she is recommending non fiction on the issue of race itself). I’m struggling with it to be honest. “White silence” is a covert act of white supremacy but then because there are seemingly an infinite amount of ways I can be covertly racist, no wonder people are silent because there are so many Microaggressions and covert forms of racism that to say anything at all is risky. (Eg it is racist to tell a black person they are “articulate”) But silence is violence. I just think the whole thing is authoritarian and intolerant the same way that “transwomen are women” is. And if I were to come out as GC on social media, which I have not been brave enough to do yet, then she would dismiss me as a terf and ergo because I don’t sign up to the package deal of the extreme left, I’m probably racist too.

For the record, I work at an outstanding inner city school with a high amount of BAME students. Day in and day out For the last 5 years I have built up relationships with kids of all backgrounds and led my department so that the students achieve excellent academic outcomes. I have diversified the curriculum, but I have also tried to change the curriculum to ensure it is academically challenging and gives our students the “cultural capital” that their more advantaged peers take for granted. I think this is a more meaningful demonstration of my own antiracism than posting a black square on my Instagram, but the former is me being a “white saviour” while the latter is “violence” through silence.

I think black lives matter, I understand why “all lives matter” is wrong, but at the same time, BLM as a political movement is something I cannot support - it’s aims are the end of the nuclear family, the defunding of the police and the overthrowing of capitalism. I also think the conflation of race with certain political beliefs is problematic in itself - a point Priti Patel made well I thought the other day - (although I am not a fan of hers AT ALL) but she seems to have shut down for not being the right kind of race or not having had the right experienced racism - which is surely racist in itself? I was horrified and sickened by the murder of George Floyd. I do not feel personally responsibility or guilt for it though which apparently makes me a racist monster.

I’m wondering if i should engage in a dialogue with my friend about this as she has invited this but wonder if it wouldn’t end well.

OP posts:
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andyoldlabour · 19/06/2020 15:38

BovaryX

"They will snigger at a cartoon of Priti Patel as a cow, but will require smelling salts at the misuse of pronouns. Despite being narcissistic to a level beyond parody, they are incapable of introspection."

This should be the official dictionary definition. I also think that "Wokeism" is a peer group led form of ideological contagion.

BlueBooby · 19/06/2020 15:42

I asked a question on the thread on AIBU about whether anyone is following what’s going on in CHAZ/CHOP but no one has commented. I’d be interested to hear other people’s opinions about it as I am aware that the sources I am using to get information are probably not impartial.

@TheRealMcKenna what do you make of CHAZ/CHOP? I have been trying to follow but I'm not sure I've seen a balanced viewpoint on it so far. It's an odd situation. My own thoughts are that whatever it's actually like there, it can't be very nice for the people who actually live or work in that area as they had no say in the matter as far as I can tell.

MsSafina · 19/06/2020 16:07

The Woke are being out woked by the Super-Woke. This is the way of leftist movements.

TheRealMcKenna · 19/06/2020 16:14

@BlueBooby I think it looks absolutely horrendous. All the videos I’ve seen put me in mind of the Manson Family, but I am using Andy Ngo’s Twitter feed as my main news source so have to consider is anti-Antifa views.

The ‘leaders’ are claimed to be ‘high up’ in the BLM organisation and, if so, it sort of shines a light on what the organisation really stands for if the organisation of the community is anything to go by.

I was talking to DH today and we were discussing how long its ‘autonomy’ would be tolerated for. I made a rather morbid bet that there’d be a high profile rape/murder/both of a senior somebody’s naive and ideological daughter/son who thought they were joining in 2020’s Summer of Love before enough pressure is put on the authorities to sort it out.

I don’t want to be proved right, but there you go. Then again, it could just be the great love-in that CNN are proclaiming it to be and all the video footage could be doctored.

Burnshersmurfs · 19/06/2020 16:23

it’s aims are the end of the nuclear family, the defunding of the police and the overthrowing of capitalism I keep seeing exactly this wording copied and pasted all over twitter and Facebook at the moment. Hmm

MsSafina · 19/06/2020 16:25

@anyoldlabour
Thanks for that. This is the way we're heading. We should just do what Macron said. The French Republic is not removing a single statue or painting.

maudavery · 19/06/2020 16:30

@Burnshersmurfs do you support those aims?

OP posts:
BlueBooby · 19/06/2020 16:34

mobile.twitter.com/kittypurrzog

@TheRealMcKenna it seems horrific to me as well to be totally honest! It's not been easy to find out much about it so I've been hesitant to comment too much. The person I linked above is a journalist I think. You might already know of her, I am not familiar with her but she was one of the first that I found tweeting on Chaz. She's going to be doing a podcast about white fragility (the book) soon too.

TheRealMcKenna · 19/06/2020 16:37

“We are trained Marxists”. Doesn’t get much clearer than that really.

twitter.com/ritapanahi/status/1273739801464725504?s=21

blacklivesmatter.com/our-co-founders/

TheRealMcKenna · 19/06/2020 16:45

@BlueBooby I haven’t heard of her but I see that she is followed on Twitter by all the right (or some would consider the alt-right) people, so I am interested in what she has to say.

Andy Ngo’s Twitter is definitely worth looking at. Some of the videos leave me absolutely gobsmacked.

terryleather · 19/06/2020 16:50

One of the many ironies is that the left used to dismiss American exports as cultural imperialism. What happened to that?

I ask myself the same question...

BovaryX · 19/06/2020 16:56

@andyoldlabour

BovaryX

"They will snigger at a cartoon of Priti Patel as a cow, but will require smelling salts at the misuse of pronouns. Despite being narcissistic to a level beyond parody, they are incapable of introspection."

This should be the official dictionary definition. I also think that "Wokeism" is a peer group led form of ideological contagion.

Ha! I don't think it will make the Newspeak cut.....
TheProdigalKittensReturn · 19/06/2020 18:24

I was still mulling over RoughSeas and the impact reading DiAngelo has had on her and her marriage, so I had a chat with my DH (like RoughSeas I'm a white Brit married to a man who's not white) and his response to DiAngelo's theories was "this is bullshit" and a rant about white liberal guilt being self indulgent and not actually helping the people it claims to want to help.

Talk to your DH, RoughSeas. Don't let your marriage be destabalised by theories about how he's "supposed" to feel that he may not even agree with.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 19/06/2020 18:32

The Woke are being out woked by the Super-Woke. This is the way of leftist movements

Yep. We’re in the Twitter era version of the Reign of Terror.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror

MsSafina · 19/06/2020 18:56

I have been having some correspondence with English Heritage about removal of statues. I have suggested that there should be emergency legislation in Parliament now to protect works of art but as our politicians are cowardly, this won't happen. If only they had someone like Macron (never thought I'd say that.)

MsSafina · 19/06/2020 18:58

"We're in the Twitter era version of the Reign of Terror."
Indeed and well put.

MsSafina · 19/06/2020 19:05

Just to say, I'm Irish and my family came here in the fifties. There was more overt racism than now but nothing as terrible as it's made out to be. The most accepting communities of ethnic minorities were working class communities- the terrible people who are now dismissed as "Gammon." In my street, a working class area, there were Jamaicans and Indians and we all rubbed along together.

Childrenofthestones · 19/06/2020 20:05

58MsSafina said.....
"We're in the Twitter era version of the Reign of Terror."
Indeed and well put.

In all this shit it's easy to forget that only 20% of people use Twitter and even less several times a day.

Melia100 · 19/06/2020 23:34

One strike and you are out?

From my personal 'watch, learn and enjoy' list? Yes. Aboriginal women and girls are some of the most disadvantaged people in the Western world; I don't need to learn from someone who thinks they are an appropriate target for sexist comedy.

There are plenty of other mixed race male comedians for me to 'learn' from, if indeed I wanted to learn from a mixed race male comedian, or indeed, any comedian.

It's a feminist board; people are free to watch, like, learn from him if they want - I'm no censor - but I'm not going to bloody apologise for contextualising the man. Not on a feminist board.

RedToothBrush · 20/06/2020 11:09

There is far too much symbolism going on that completely misses the point.

If we take down slave owner statues it's almost convenient as we are removing evidence of the importance of slave owners to how this country was built. The UK was built on the backs of slaves and colonialism. I'm not sure taking down representation of that really helps us confront that reality. And I've not seen much discussion about what we replace them with. Our past is unpalatable but we need to highlight this and think about what icons we want to promote NOW. What is it we want to leave as a legacy to generations to come. What do we want the youth of 100 years time to see.

We aren't building BAME and white icons to promote the world we want to live in and that represents us now.

And that's a rather fundamental problem with the way BLM is being discussed - that I think is removed from that. It's all about destroy the past and very little about what we build to replace it (a big like a vote we had a few years ago - political vacuumss are very bad things. People rush in to exploit them. Without discussion and firm idea and plans of what follows there's an issue)

We have already seen the commercialisation of the BLM movement. This is for a reason. There are some powerful people seeking to signal support whilst ultimately protecting their own position.

There's an article in the Times today which touches on this, again by Trevor Phillips.

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/obsession-with-symbols-threatens-attempt-to-change-the-real-world-m77l3c7ln
Obsession with symbols threatens attempt to change the real world

News that the Rugby Football Union is seriously “reviewing” the singing of Swing Low Sweet Chariot could easily be taken as a bad joke. However, this is not satire. If I were given to conspiracy theories I would see a calculated plot to discredit the worldwide call for racial justice. At the very least it is a baffling turn away from issues of substance in the battle against racism, for which so many have given so much. But this madness is what happens when leadership of the movement is taken away from serious black leaders who have real skin in the game and handed to people for whom it is just another skirmish in the culture wars. It has got to stop.

He criticises what's happening saying "If Black Lives Matter were truly pursuing radical change rather than street theatre, they’d tear away from persecuting ghosts & statues, & take their anger to companies which have no person of colour on their boards.”

He's right but the inherant problem with this is you end up promoting people due to the colour of their skin in an act of tokenism potentially over experience and qualifications because they haven't had the same opportunities as someone white. And you run the risk of unleashing angry mobs against business which alienates the well meaning and generally supportive group which are slightly more conservative (with a small c) better off (both white and BAME).

This idea also creates resentment and potentially also has two other side affects: setting up someone to fail (much like the glass cliff affect) or being able to select someone who is palatable to white boards. I know that the criticism of the BBC in its diversity policy has been that you have BAME individuals from very middle class backgrounds that are given priority and this actually narrows representation in a way rather than expands it because it ignores the socioeconomic issues lying underneath. You need people from poor BAME backgrounds (and actually white backgrounds too) who understand some of the pressures and problems from that as part of the mix - such as the temptations of drugs and poor schools and lack of food (yep here's where Rashford with his school dinners are very important)

I'm seeing very little of this going on.

I just see BLM ending up as something that can ultimately be marketed rather than really force the right type of conversation about power dynamics and exploitation / oppression and ongoing hierarchical power. It very much has the same issues as the TRA agenda in this respect in its blindness and lack of substance and how its dominated by fuzzy feeling beliefs over structural observations of power and increasing opportunities for those who don't benefit from inherited wealth and nepotism.

I genuinely don't know where things move on front this point without thought about these issues. Nothing will change.

andyoldlabour · 20/06/2020 12:31

TheRealMcKenna

Ah, don't you just love those tolerant, cuddly Marxists - Pol Pot, what a great guy loved an execution or two (million).
I believe that Lily Madigan used to have Marxist signs on their twitter feed.
The Momentum/lefty/Marxist movements are a race to the bottom, anarchy and destruction for the sake of it.

TheRealMcKenna · 20/06/2020 16:14

I was talking to DH today and we were discussing how long its ‘autonomy’ would be tolerated for. I made a rather morbid bet that there’d be a high profile rape/murder/both of a senior somebody’s naive and ideological daughter/son who thought they were joining in 2020’s Summer of Love before enough pressure is put on the authorities to sort it out.

Well, that didn’t take long. Two shot in CHAZ yesterday and one has died. One serious sexual assault reported. Looks like ‘defunding the police’ is going just about as well as anyone with half a brain cell could have predicted.

Considering the ‘population’ and how long the ‘state’ has been in existence for, the current homicide rate must make it one of the most dangerous places to live in the USA. Great work there!

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 20/06/2020 16:18

Similar ideas in terms of how to handle rape and other violent crime were in place in many Occupy camps, and worked about as well (ie not at all) there. I can see why people have taken that position, because policing in America really is dire, but they've skipped multiple steps in their "some day in a better world the police won't be needed" and aren't willing to recognize that unfortunately what they're asking for won't work in the less than ideal world we have right now.

WomaninBoots · 20/06/2020 19:08

I don't think any kind of revolution ends up being good for women caught up in it. Like any conflict. To the men, the women just become more commodities to fight over. And it's never "the right time" to discuss women's rights...

MsSafina · 20/06/2020 20:36

@TheRealMcKenna.
This all translates into a landslide for Trump come November.

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