My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TRA friend and BLM

246 replies

maudavery · 16/06/2020 05:55

I have a very woke friend, she has always been very outspoken on the trans issue but on social media she is surprisingly quiet at the minute, perhaps because JKR has made such brilliant points that it is difficult to argue against. So instead she has been posting a lot about BLM, trying to “educate” her white friends (she is white) about racism and recommend lots of reading. It is normal during this reading to feel defensive and uncomfortable she says. She invites us to DM her so that we can talk about these feelings. She doesn’t intend to sounds preachy and self righteous. She has then listed about 50 forms of covert white supremacy. Some of them I am aware of eg white hero complex, after the Stacey Dooley affair, (but then I wonder, is my friend not demonstrating this herself in her incessant drive to educate others about racism on behalf of people of a different race?)

I always thought not being racist was fairly straightforward- judge people by the content of the character, not the colour of their skin. But apparently this is no longer the case. I need to educate myself (I read very widely and have always read a lot of books by BAME authors, but she is recommending non fiction on the issue of race itself). I’m struggling with it to be honest. “White silence” is a covert act of white supremacy but then because there are seemingly an infinite amount of ways I can be covertly racist, no wonder people are silent because there are so many Microaggressions and covert forms of racism that to say anything at all is risky. (Eg it is racist to tell a black person they are “articulate”) But silence is violence. I just think the whole thing is authoritarian and intolerant the same way that “transwomen are women” is. And if I were to come out as GC on social media, which I have not been brave enough to do yet, then she would dismiss me as a terf and ergo because I don’t sign up to the package deal of the extreme left, I’m probably racist too.

For the record, I work at an outstanding inner city school with a high amount of BAME students. Day in and day out For the last 5 years I have built up relationships with kids of all backgrounds and led my department so that the students achieve excellent academic outcomes. I have diversified the curriculum, but I have also tried to change the curriculum to ensure it is academically challenging and gives our students the “cultural capital” that their more advantaged peers take for granted. I think this is a more meaningful demonstration of my own antiracism than posting a black square on my Instagram, but the former is me being a “white saviour” while the latter is “violence” through silence.

I think black lives matter, I understand why “all lives matter” is wrong, but at the same time, BLM as a political movement is something I cannot support - it’s aims are the end of the nuclear family, the defunding of the police and the overthrowing of capitalism. I also think the conflation of race with certain political beliefs is problematic in itself - a point Priti Patel made well I thought the other day - (although I am not a fan of hers AT ALL) but she seems to have shut down for not being the right kind of race or not having had the right experienced racism - which is surely racist in itself? I was horrified and sickened by the murder of George Floyd. I do not feel personally responsibility or guilt for it though which apparently makes me a racist monster.

I’m wondering if i should engage in a dialogue with my friend about this as she has invited this but wonder if it wouldn’t end well.

OP posts:
Report
Goosefoot · 22/06/2020 23:02

@Freespeecher

Their tactics leave me scratching my head - why go for Churchill, who a few years back was voted the 'Greatest Briton' on a TV show? And as for why they're trying to take down a statue of Gandhi...

"Yes, let's tear down the most popular historical figure around to secure enough support to accomplish this really important bit of policy change. And Gandhi too, everyone hates him and it will show we aren't just going after white icons".

On the principle of what I do, not what I say, the answer seems to be that they aren't trying to get people to buy into their program.
Report
DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 23/06/2020 03:12

That was a really excellent post RefToothBrush.

Report
TheRealMcKenna · 25/06/2020 08:56

This discussion is worth listening to. For those unfamiliar with Bret Weinstein, he is an evolutionary biologist who was at the heart of the Evergreen College protests in 2017.

The discussion of how the TRA and BLM ‘movements’ seem to go hand in hand starts about 32 minutes in. His observations, as always, are very interesting.

Report
MsSafina · 28/06/2020 16:37

There was a demo yesterday of BLM black trans activists but most of them were white.

Report
SerenityNowwwww · 28/06/2020 16:58

Yes I saw the photos. White people having picnics as wellington arch. Any black trans people in attendance?

Report
TheRealMcKenna · 28/06/2020 16:59

They were trans-racial.

Report
SerenityNowwwww · 28/06/2020 17:00

Aye, like sh* they are.

Report
MsSafina · 29/06/2020 16:40

@TheRealMcKenna
Grin

Report
hoodathunkit · 29/06/2020 18:38

OP

I am living in a block of flats with elderly people, many of whom are extremely racist and sexist and I suspect that they perceive me as some kind of right on, patronising person.

I sat through maybe 30 minutes at the weekend of somone ranting that white people are oppressed by black people not the other way round, people destroying statues are just criminals, black people take drugs, yada yada ad nauseam.

If I try to say anything one of the men interrupts and everyone just listens to them and ignores me.

Unfortunately sinister forces are influencing our society, creating divisions and causing chaos. While my neighbours are usually racist they are in a fighting mood right now and feelings are running high.

What they don't know is that I was pimped out and abused in horrific ways by a black (Caribbean) man in my teens and early 20s. He hated white people and what he did to me was part of his revenge against white people.

If you ask me if i am racist I would have to say that I am. I hate racism, I am opposed to racism with every iota of my being, but due to trauma and due to the racism I was fed with my mother's milk (I actually had a copy of Little Black Sambo as a kid) I can feel the racism in me.

I also understand that white privilege exists and that, even after what I have been thought and endured, that I benefit from it.

I have not read much in the way of classic feminist or anti-racist books at all.

I just have not really had time as I am so busy with my own projects.

My committment towards anti-racism is to stay thinking. To listen to people when they describe experiencing racism and to take them seriously. To genuinely care about them and to examine my own behaviour (my default mode anyway).

Just because someone says "that's racist" does not mean that it is. Misunderstandings happen.

However just because a million people say "that's not racist" doesn't mean that it isn't.

I just don't think that this is necessarily about reading books, it is about staying thinking, caring, trying not to be defensive, understanding that nobody is perfect, we all have the capacity to revert to primitive thinking (racism being a prime example) and caring about people.

I hope you can find a way to get through this.

Report
hoodathunkit · 29/06/2020 19:09

I think black lives matter, I understand why “all lives matter” is wrong, but at the same time, BLM as a political movement is something I cannot support - it’s aims are the end of the nuclear family, the defunding of the police and the overthrowing of capitalism.

I don't think that "all lives matter" is wrong. The problem with ALM (which of course they do) is that it is parroted as a way of diverting from the everyday racism, deaths in custody and other important issues that the BLM movement is primarily about. It is also, in my extensive recent experience, a way of shutting down conversations about racism that we need to have.

Has the BLM movement been compromised, infiltrated and astroturfed by sinister forces? Of course it has. Just as the TRA movement, LGB movement, feminism and countless other activist groups have been.

This is something to think about and expose with great care. This is not a reason to close down the conversation.

One thing that keeps on arising again and again in conversations I have with other white people about race of late is that back in the olden days everyone was racist. Or as Ricky Gervais referred to it in one of his stand up routines 'before racism was invented".

It is true that if we look back to our recent and not so recent history racism was everywhere. Granted.

The problem is that people use this fact to end the conversation, when instead it should be the fact that starts the conversation.

Report
Goosefoot · 29/06/2020 19:22

Realistically I think ALM is probably something people mean in various ways. Some people use it reflexively without much thought, but some seem to mean that BLM isn't an idea that can be addressed so discretely, it's part of a larger problem that has to be approached as a whole.

Report
maudavery · 29/06/2020 20:04

What they don't know is that I was pimped out and abused in horrific ways by a black (Caribbean) man in my teens and early 20s. He hated white people and what he did to me was part of his revenge against white people.

If you ask me if i am racist I would have to say that I am. I hate racism, I am opposed to racism with every iota of my being, but due to trauma and due to the racism I was fed with my mother's milk (I actually had a copy of Little Black Sambo as a kid) I can feel the racism in me.


I am very sorry that you went through such a traumatic experience. I think your feelings towards the man who abused you are as a result Of doing a despicable thing to you, not due to his race.

If we get to a point where we assume everyone who is black is beyond reproach even when the commit evil acts, because to point out these actual is racist, then we will be in big trouble - we have already seen the consequences of this with things like girls in Rotherham.

DiAngelo's Pernicious narrative is circular and inescapable. All White people Are racist. If you are white, There is no way you cannot be racist. If you say you aren't, this is proof that you are. The only way to show you are not racist is by admitting you are racist and it is racist to say that you aren't racist.

OP posts:
Report
TheRealMcKenna · 29/06/2020 20:32

I don’t even know where to start with this gem.

The good news is that ‘liberal’ white women are beyond any form of redemption, so I may as well just shove myself into the ‘basket of deplorables’ and be done with it....

TRA friend and BLM
Report
Thinkingabout1t · 29/06/2020 20:51

It’s opened up a deep well of guilt and shame in me

Job done!

Virtue-signallers work at making people feel bad about themselves. Not so much at making the world a better place.

RoughSeas, your husband sounds kind and sensible. (And your comment "I love the very bones of him" warms my heart.) Long may you both enjoy your love.

Report
Binterested · 29/06/2020 20:55

Good lord that tweet Shock. White women really are the worst. Especially those of us who know what a woman is (clue: White women are. Black women are. Men are not. We are such bitches).

OP your friend sounds dreadful. We all must do what we think is right. I try to overcome any prejudices I might otherwise have and try to listen and be open. That’s my commitment. I don’t have original sin and I won’t be made to atone for sins that aren’t mine. We all object to the way particularly black men are treated by the police in the USA and there are concerns here about socio economic equality and we must do more. I am an employer and try to be careful in recruitment and we are mindful in how we reach new candidates for roles. I read quite widely and am consciously broadening what I read. That’s my commitment. I’m responsible for my patch and I do what I can.

I wouldn’t tolerate a friend like that. Increasingly navigating this world acceptably has little to do with increasing social justice and more to do with creating a new elite squadron who can learn the new vocabulary and who then police other less obsessive people who fail the vocab rules. That’s why there are so many pointless useless white people policing others in this movement. It’s just a new form of middle class advancement.

By the way we also had a copy of Little Black Sambo. I recall loving the story of the little boy who turned tigers into butter. The name passed me by. It had been my grandmother’s and she was born in 1901. It’s actually been rewritten in a more acceptable fashion but with the same cool story and a little brown boy as the hero as it was in the original. It’s now the Story of Little Babaji.

Report
MsSafina · 30/06/2020 09:04

I heard an interview on Talkradio on YouTube with a BLM activist. I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt until the bit about 1917 and the Russian Revolution. Really it's just old Trot stuff, repackaged in a racial context.

Report
hoodathunkit · 30/06/2020 10:22

It is true that if we look back to our recent and not so recent history racism was everywhere. Granted.

The problem is that people use this fact to end the conversation, when instead it should be the fact that starts the conversation.

Posted in haste yesterday

what I wanted to say was

"It is true that if we look back to our recent and not so recent history everyone was racist. Granted.

The problem is that people use this fact to end the conversation, when instead it should be the fact that starts the conversation."

Report
hoodathunkit · 30/06/2020 10:25

I am very sorry that you went through such a traumatic experience. I think your feelings towards the man who abused you are as a result Of doing a despicable thing to you, not due to his race.

To understand my feelings towards him you have to understand the nature of trauma and its relationship to how humans compartmentalise and categorise things and experiences at a deeply unconscious level.

So, for example, at one point he held a kettle over my face, one of those old kettles that you put on the stove, not an electric one. I have, on occasion, when I have seen one of those old kettles on TV, in a film or IRL, been in touch with a feeling of anxiety, like a dark cloud hovering over me. I don’t like the use of the word “triggering” for various reasons, however I am aware that sometimes I feel bad, the dark cloud oppresses me from above, and it may be that I just saw one of those kettles on TV and, without me realising it, I experienced a feeling of anxiety, not quite a flashback but something like it.

As a rational adult I recognise that the kettle poses no threat to me. Kettles are inert objects harmless in themselves, it is the unconscious association that can generate a feeling of anxiety if I see one, or even if I do not register seeing one but feel plummeted in anxiety, on such occasions I have rewound the video to see a kettle and I have a moment of realisation as to why I am feeling anxious.

The anxiety arises because of an unconscious association that kettles = torture. This is both rational given my experience, and irrational because it was in the past and not happening right now.

I understand that I have a conscious, rational aspect to my mind and an unconscious, irrational aspect to my mind, like every other human being on the planet. We all have an “inner chimp” a primitive part of ourselves that is selfish, scared, irrational, likely to blame and scapegoat others. It is the human condition.

Unfortunately, given the current coronavirus situation, tensions are rising and people do what they always do in pandemics, they blame, scapegoat and fall back on primitive ways of thinking / not thinking.

Our default unconscious mode of dividing the world into good and bad, clean and dirty, infected and not infected, self and other is intensified.

This is coupled with the manipulation of the mob internationally by some highly skilled puppet masters. In a “divide and conquer” situation different activist groups are encouraged to nurture grievances and to attack each other. Old against young, women against men, gay against straight, everything against everything until chaos rules.


If we get to a point where we assume everyone who is black is beyond reproach even when the commit evil acts, because to point out these actual is racist, then we will be in big trouble - we have already seen the consequences of this with things like girls in Rotherham.

Is anyone saying that everyone who is black is beyond reproach even when the commit evil acts ?

I do not think that anyone is saying that. Plenty of commentators from ethnic minorities have pointed out that George Floyd pointing a gun at a pregnant woman was an appalling thing to do, but that this is about much more than George Floyd.

Even if he was a person with no redeeming qualities police should not kneel on a someone’s neck until they die. Obviously. When that someone is African American it resonates with all the people who have lost loved ones in similar situations and there are many, many people out there who have lost loved ones in similar situations. This is an issue that has touched me very personally.


DiAngelo's Pernicious narrative is circular and inescapable. All White people Are racist. If you are white, There is no way you cannot be racist. If you say you aren't, this is proof that you are. The only way to show you are not racist is by admitting you are racist and it is racist to say that you aren't racist.

The problem here is that being accused of being racist becomes being accused of being evil and the worst thing possible. If I had £1 for every time one of my new neighbours had started a sentence with “I’m not racist but…” before going on to say something disgustingly racist I would probably be able to go on holiday with the money.

Acknowledging your own racism isn’t about wearing a hair shirt, beating yourself up, wringing your hands and virtue signalling. None of that is any good to anyone.

Acknowledging your racism is about simply having a commitment to supporting oppressed people in a racist society and that means staying thinking, staying communicating and tolerating feeling uncomfortable.

It does not mean that if someone calls you out on racism that they are always right. They might be. They might not be. Misunderstandings arise all the time, especially with non-verbal communication.

Similarly just because a whole room of people say that something isn’t racist doesn’t mean that it isn’t. I was recently in a situation with a group of neighbours where, during a heated discussion about racism one said “Enoch [Powell] was right!” and they all agreed except me. This ended up in a big shouting match about Brexit, foreigners and “the country being too full”. Me against maybe 15 other people.

To be honest I no longer call out racism and sexism where I live. My life is already difficult enough and it only encourages them into further furious rants. Some person from an ethnic minority will probably end up on the receiving end of their hate because of me.

Back to the kettle issue.

At an unconscious level our anxieties are all about binary categories. Clean / dirty, safe / dangerous, self / other, good / bad. At a more conscious, mature level we can appreciate things on a more complex, nuanced level.

When humans are sleep deprived, stressed, scared, when we feel unsafe, we lose the capacity to think reflectively and we fall back into binary thinking, what a psychotherapist would call “splitting” in which everything is good or bad, clean or dirty, self or other.

The evacuation of “badness” becomes a preoccupation at such times and these are the dangerous unconscious drives that can become the foundations for genocide and other atrocities.

It is during these times that the divisions between people can be manipulated in an inflammatory manner and can ignite into violence and even riots. People become aligned with various “tribes” and activist groups and end up fighting with each other as they are not able to comprehend the real opponent. This is the nature of divide and conquer.

Report
DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 30/06/2020 10:31

Slight tangent but had anyone been keeping up with news from the ‘autonomous zone’ in Seattle?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/06/29/us/seattle-protests-CHOP-CHAZ-autonomous-zone.amp.html

I’ve not heard anything at all on British news - have I just missed it?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thecut.com/amp/2020/06/whats-going-on-in-chaz-the-seattle-autonomous-zone.html

It’s hard to make sense of due to all the Fake News of the modern day internet :/

Report
andyoldlabour · 30/06/2020 10:45

TheRealMcKenna

Do you reckon that old "cis" white men may be more deplorable than "liberal" white women? Is there a league table where we can all compare? I wouldn't know where I fit in, because I am half Irish and a ginge?

Report
TheRealMcKenna · 30/06/2020 10:56

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong it’s worth following Andy Ngo on Twitter if you want to know what’s going on in CHAZ/CHOP.

From what I can gather, the vast majority of ‘protestors’ who moved into the area at its peak have now left. The barriers are still up and the police are still not entering. So far there have been 5 shootings - 2 of them fatal, and at least one serious sexual assault. Paramedics refused to attend the first shooting because they couldn’t attend with the police.

Antifa (who don’t exist apparently) keep attempting to set up an autonomous zone in Portland. Most of the non-existent Antifa members who are arrested each night are then immediately bailed out. Andy Ngo puts up mug-shots of the arrestees - most of whom look like they’ve just escaped from Arkham.

Report
TheRealMcKenna · 30/06/2020 11:07

andyoldlabour I think it’s pretty immaterial. Once you cross the Event Horizon of deplorableness, you are destined to be forever within the singularity of fascism and everyone within its realm is equal. It’s known as a White Hole.

Report
maudavery · 30/06/2020 11:26

*Acknowledging your own racism isn’t about wearing a hair shirt, beating yourself up, wringing your hands and virtue signalling. None of that is any good to anyone.

Acknowledging your racism is about simply having a commitment to supporting oppressed people in a racist society and that means staying thinking, staying communicating and tolerating feeling uncomfortable. *

I agree with this. I think so much of the anti racism we see atm is what your describe in the former paragraph, and that is my frustration. That celeb video "i take responsibility" and "black out Tuesday" seem like the most obvious examples of the vacuous virtue signalling.

There are blatant examples of racism around us- the Enoch Powell example you've given is awful. But I am less convinced that viewing every single "microagrresion" through a lens of race is helpful
Or constructive to anyone. Intent matters, although that doesn't seem to the be the commonly held view among the work left.

OP posts:
Report
andyoldlabour · 30/06/2020 11:28

TheRealMcKenna

Is the Event Horizon of deplorableness similar to Purgatory or Hell, because if it is the latter, then as a ginge I am out Grin

Report
PaleBlueMoonlight · 30/06/2020 11:33

Haven't read the full thread, but in case not mentioned before, Helen Pluckrose is very good on explaining this.

Report
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.