Is heterosexual sex a tool of women's oppression?

[NoMoreDickheads]

Sex with my ex felt like it.

Hopefully the narrative on fwr still allows for lesbian women not to want any sort of sex with men.
Sorry, super, as soon as I hit post I realised I'd missed out the "heterosexual" fromthe sentence. I'm too hetero normative! Just fed up with feminists being strawmanned as hating sex.

If you have to sleep with people you aren’t attracted to to achieve it, what is it you’re actually fighting for/against?

I saw an (otherwise funny) comic the other day stating that he wouldn’t want a gay son or a daughter as he didn’t want anyone in his family being penetrated by a dick. Ha ha. Because it’s degrading isn’t it? Being penetrated by a dick? Dick = power. Geddit? Is he a feminist? Don’t think so.

Women have also used sex as a tool to coerce men. Like in the comedy Lysistrata.

I love that your example of coercive women is from fiction.

Got any examples of women using sex as a war crime? Or any evidence of systematic use of sex as a weapon by women? I doubt it......

Is there not a difference between withdrawing consent for an activity and forcing an activity on someone?

Neither of those are using sex as a tool for coercion. Forcing sex is flat out rape. Coercing sex is making sex the condition for basic human respect- as in being emotionally and verbally abusing until you get sex. In coercing sex, the sex is the condition, and the reward is to not be abused. Which is why it is a type of rape too.

But, Lysistrata is a comedy where sex is used to coerce another activity. In this case, sex is used as a tool to make the men surrender and stop fighting in a war. Women have used sex as a tool to coerce men into murdering exes, for an extreme example. It’s not as simple as “withdrawing consent” the sex is held out as a reward for doing x. X is the condition the man must do in order to be granted sex. Even on mumsnet there was a poster that said she had a list of weekly tasks for her DH and he had to complete them all or there would be no chance of sex. That is weaponising sex.

Or any evidence of systematic use of sex as a weapon by women?

There is a long history of sex via honeytraps as a weapon (influence / non kinetic) in sexpionage, terrorism and crime.

The women were / are usually controlled by men and abused themselves.

foreignpolicy.com/2010/03/12/the-history-of-the-honey-trap/

(anyone have a share token for this?)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-years-of-loving-dangerously-rv7wz00c3jw

love that your example of coercive women is from fiction.

Thank you. I picked it as it is from Ancient Greece by Aristophanes, a playwright whose plays are mostly social commentary. He would not have written about women using sex as a tool to coerce if it was completely unheard of/never done. This was back in 400 BC or so.

If you want a more recent example, there is always Amy Fisher.

Your own Queen Elizabeth I played a game of promising marriage (sex) with herself on condition that the princes/kings interested gave her massive concessions in trade, huge tributes of money and valuables, obeyed pacts to attack the hated Spanish, etc.

Why is a play written in ancient Greek times being brought up to support an argument in 2020?

Bit leftfield

Worth noting that the view of women's sexuality has changed enormously over the last couple of thousand years and in fact has been viewed differently across different cultures over that time. Pretty much always defined by men, of course.

Why would anyone think a play, written as a comedy, in ancient Greece, would be a good way to prove 'women do it too'???

'Penetrative sex is great, orgasm or not.'

For you.

This is about women as a class, globally. You can't speak for all of them.

'If you want a more recent example'

There is a long history of sex via honeytraps as a weapon (influence / non kinetic) in sexpionage, terrorism and crime.

Mata Hari is a famous WWI spy who used sex. She was double crossed though and executed.

The French court had the Flying Squadron- a team of female spies for the French Queen Catherine de Medici which she used to control the King and various powerful nobles in France via sexual access and favours.

Why would anyone think a play, written as a comedy, in ancient Greece, would be a good way to prove 'women do it too'???

But I did not say “women do it too” what are you talking about?
I used it as an example of sex being used to coerce not to oppress. Very different. And I’ve said that men oppress to get sex, but women use sex to coerce something else (ie murder an ex, or a rival etc). This is also different. There is no “do it too”.

Even on mumsnet there was a poster that said she had a list of weekly tasks for her DH and he had to complete them all or there would be no chance of sex. That is weaponising sex.

That's hilarious. The weapon against men is no sex, the weapon against women is fear of rape. Very Attwood-esque.

Plan why are you swearing at me?

Also why are you using female spies doing a dangerous job to prove whatever point you're trying to prove? Don't you think make spies seduced men as well in that environment?

'women use sex to coerce something else (ie murder an ex, or a rival etc)'

Do they? I mean, a lot????

In all seriousness, you are now equating women using sex as a reward (for housework, for murder etc) with men using sex as a punishment.

This is fucked up and offensive to men. Any reasonable man would not be so led by his dick that he committed murder for a shag.

Some of the posters on here totally score own goals in their argument

'It can be a reason for a man or men to oppress a woman or women.
Or vice versa. Hence sex trafficking.'

What are the stats for men trafficking women for sex versus women trafficking men?

Something approximate will do.

Trafficking men for sex that should say.

@ShinyFootball

Plan why are you swearing at me?

Also why are you using female spies doing a dangerous job to prove whatever point you're trying to prove? Don't you think make spies seduced men as well in that environment?

I have not used any swear words.

I was agreeing with hoods post where she mentioned that sex is used by female spies as a weapon. Not sure why it matters that “men do it too?”

From a lesbian point of view, I find it very odd, the idea that before having sex, you might have to worry about getting pregnant. The fact that lesbians can divorce sex from procreation is a good thing as far as I am concerned.
I think I agree with a lot of what Andrea Dworkin wrote in Intercourse. From my experience with gay men, many of them were confused how sex without a penis or a penis substitute could be sex (as opposed to some sort of foreplay). To be real sex as far as they were concerned, sex had to include a penis and some sort of penetration of whatever orifice. Anything else wasn't real sex. Which tells us a lot about male attitudes to define sex. At least gay man have the excuse that anal penetration for them tends to stimulate the prostate, so isn't as one-sided as anal penetration for women.
From President Clinton downwards, sex for men seems to be about what they stick their dick into and only that. Given that many straight women don't orgasm from only penetration, it is very instructive to see how clearly heterosexual sex from the male point of view isn't about female pleasure, but male pleasure. And male pleasure obtained in a way that can be damaging to the health of the female (pregnancy for example), if not directly painful (anal sex).
Not to say that lesbians don't do penetration, but in my experience, lesbians do lots of other things as well, and it is all sex, and centres female pleasure, and all of the women I have been with ask before any sort of penetration, because they seem to be able to acknowledge that penetrating the body of another person is a special act, that requires clear and explicit permission (and yes GG, before every entry).

In all seriousness, you are now equating women using sex as a reward (for housework, for murder etc) with men using sex as a punishment.

No I’m not. I clearly stated that the two things were very different. The only similarity is that sex is involved. That’s it.

What are the stats for men trafficking women for sex versus women trafficking men?

You’ve misunderstood me, and I was not clear in the order I wrote my words.

I’m saying that

1. Most frequently, men oppress women to get sex (hence sex trafficking).

1. vice versa, in isolated cases women oppress/coerce men not to get sex, but to get anything else and sex is the reward.

Men and boys are victims of sex trafficking

one example

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200616113433/www.nydailynews.com/hc-news-connecticut-male-sex-trafficking-20181115-story.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200616113433/www.nydailynews.com/hc-news-connecticut-male-sex-trafficking-20181115-story.html

Usually the perpetrators / traffickers are other men.

I heard someone recently say "If ever any proof were needed that sexuality is innate, it's the existence of heterosexual women." Some days that's how I feel.

Me too.

I'm not sure whether the post title is about the sex act or about the heterosexual desire that draws women to men. Certainly I wish I was not attracted to males. In some cases, it's the sexual equivalent of Stockholm syndrome.

Penetrating someone is used as a metaphor for being harmed/disadvantaged: "I'm shafted/buggered/fucked/screwed". Lovely way to think of the role of heterosexual women.
Porn now tells us exactly what men like to think about women who have sex.

Many men want women to be available for sex but then despise them for it. Certainly a women having sex with anyone but them doesn't garner additional respect. That Jesus was born to a virgin pretty much says it all. Couldn't venerate a woman who's had a dick up her, could we now?

That a women accommodates a penis inside her willingly or unwillingly is unquestionably used to devalue and disrespect her. The Madonna/whore problem. Sad and depressing.

I notice the the examples of women using sex badly here, are all very specific examples of unusual behaviour, usually from famous characters, whereas the examples of men using sex badly are like, the near universality of violent misogynistic porn, the world wide phenomena of sex trafficking, rape, sexual abuse, and loads of women recounting their common day accounts of selfish and crap sexual experiences with men.