Is heterosexual sex a tool of women's oppression?

[NoMoreDickheads]

Sex with my ex felt like it.

I was shocked by the numbers of women who seem to not enjoy sex at all but go through the motions because they feel they should or who have just accepted this as their fate

Contrast that to men who say "sex is a human need" therefore prostitution is a necessary function of society?

Excellent point.

there are plenty of women who also say sex is a human need, though - you get it on the boards here every few months.

More women are indifferent IMO for various reasons. But the idea that it is a need is largely cultural IMO.

I think it is because of the balance of the risks involved...
And there's huge expectation that a heterosexual relationship MUST involve regular PIV sex too.

The fact that women are so often on hormonal contraception for the majority of their reproductive years.

I haven't used hormonal contraception since I was 22, but from reading the experiences of other women on this forum, it seems it can reduce or remove the physical and mental symptoms of menstruation. From the way some women post about it, they talk about it like it's a wonder drug.

Must admit I enjoy a bit of penetrative sex. I can orgasm from it fairly consistently with a bit of 'warm up.'

But I am so much happier without a man- a nasty one, anyway. I love the feeling of freedom from their demands.

The demands were part of a power imbalance with my ex- I'm a bit of a sub, but how he would order 'lick my X' 'suck my Y' was unpleasant looking back. He took advantage of a power imbalance. Even 'That's good, now X my Y' a couple of times when I was talking to him about something non-sexual and finished a sentence. Amazing that I felt I so had to please him/didn't want to displease him, and have or had so little assertiveness that I didn't feel I could say 'no, fuck off!'

I'm bi/pansexual and had penetrative sex with a female partner for a bit which was really nice.

The fact that women are so often on hormonal contraception for the majority of their reproductive years.

People can choose not to take these though

@Goosefoot Most women pre-menopause feel the need for some sort of contraception if they are having sex with men. I can't take the pill as I once suffered a condition in response to hormone pills.

The implant gave me constant bleeding/discharge.

I used a hormone-free coil and the first one was great. I had it replaced after 8 years, and the new one must've been put in the wrong place for me. It was constantly painful and put me off sex (100% reliable contraception. ) I had to get it removed and don't fancy having it again and risking pain etc.

I actually like sex with condoms, it feels more respectful to me and is a little sex ritual that to me makes sex more exciting (weird I know- like 'ooh now we're going to have sex') but a lot of men refuse/don't want to wear them. Next time I hope to tell them if they don't use them I'm not shagging them. (Unfortunately, some of them practice 'stealthing,' which is appalling.)

Most women wouldn't use NFP as a method of contraception as it is less reliable than others.

The fact that we have to choose either contraception or pregnancy or abstinence isn't oppression though, it's what our bodies are.

I think it's hard for women in a relationship to choose abstinence, or even for women to choose condoms, without coercion to do otherwise.

I am really uncomfortable with arguments that are getting close to saying we are oppressed simply by the fact of the possibility of pregnancy, before even bringing anything else into it.

Our oppression is built partly on our physical difference from men- our typically smaller and less muscular frames and sometimes the fact that we are the ones that can get pregnant. (Maybe this is less of a factor outside of religious cultures which promote pregnancy, or wartime situations, but you do hear of abusive men coercing a woman/making them have a baby as a way to keep a woman in a relationship.)

A lot of children are actually children of rape or coerced sex. People disparage young mums, but their pregnancies in particular can be a result of rape. I got pregnant once to a bloke who was constantly trying to coerce me into sex, would rape me while I was asleep or drunk, or say 'just let me do it for a few minutes' etc. I had just realized I was being repeatedly raped and was about to leave the relationship when I found I was pregnant (I had a miscarriage and left him eventually, maybe within a few months.)

Culture then reinforces oppression through enforcing sex stereotypes/gender roles etc.

Pregnancy and childbirth also tend to have financial consequences which make it easier for men to control/trap us in relationships, and also women tend to have more qualms about leaving if they have children.

There's no doubt that the contraceptive pill can be great for many - but it also has a lot of side effects. It kills some womens' libido. Given a lot of women will go on it very young, I suspect there are a women who think they have a low sex drive when really it has been surpressed by the pill. I don't think GPs talk enough about side effects before prescribing, because there is so much of a drive to stop unwanted pregnancies.

'Our oppression is built partly on our physical difference from men- our typically smaller and less muscular frames and sometimes the fact that we are the ones that can get pregnant. (Maybe this is less of a factor outside of religious cultures which promote pregnancy, or wartime situations, but you do hear of abusive men coercing a woman/making them have a baby as a way to keep a woman in a relationship.)'

God that made me think of caecescu suddenly. The one child policy in China would be the other end of the scale. Both awful.

I think the expectation and entitlement to heterosexual sex is oppressing. And this runs deep.
Anyone who mentions low sex drive or celibacy around here gets a chorus of 'everyone has a right to a satisfying sex life' and 'you're not husband and wife you're roommates', 'you should open up the relationship or consider divorce' like sex is the one measure of a true romantic relationship and nothing else has any weight. That's oppressive surely as if you mentally/physically can't provide it then you're most intimate and family relationships can be dismissed and lost and everyone nods wisely about it because 'well people have needs'.
The act itself can feel pretty oppressive due to physical differences sometimes and the fact contraception is overwhelmingly a burden for the woman, but a respectful partner should be aware of that.
I think if someone wants to be intentionally aggressive/humiliating than the act is also horribly oppressive.
I like heterosexual sex but wish we could shrug off the expectations around it.

I think risk of pregnancy can go down in the 'oppressive' column. I believe its riskier to give birth than it is to have an abortion. Pregnancy risks women's lives. Does sweet FA to men's risk of death. So the balance is unequal and that's kinda where this whole patriarchal stuff started no?

So the balance is unequal and that's kinda where this whole patriarchal stuff started no?

I read somewhere that as we are the means of (re)production, patriarchy is the ruling class' (men's) ownership of us as a means of production.

I can't have children, am 43 now, and haven't have sex that could result in pregnancy for a couple of years (ex had chronic ED due to health problems so 'sex' could've been in quotes really and penetrative sex involved a strap-on all except a couple of times, when it needed a medical pump.)

PIV did little for him and he always tried to insist on anal (sorry, TMI) as he liked that visual stimulus mainly due to his love of porn, or it would just be mostly me giving him oral.

So I suppose I wasn't even necessarily thinking of PIV in the initial post, more of the sexual coercion men can instill.

I wasn't thinking of pregnancy, but it is definitely part of it.

And other physically nasty stuff I suppose, like the injuries some inflict on women from various forms of sex, and their lifelong consequences of various kinds.

Have any of you read Factcheckme's intercourse series? factcheckme.wordpress.com/the-intercourse-series/ I 'enjoyed' it at the time, will have to reread.

BarbieandKenBruce

Agree!

NoMoreDickheads

Yes, I am aware that if women have sex without contraception, they can become pregnant. But that in itself is not oppression any more than we are oppressed by the fact that if we don't eat, we starve. Nature, or whatever you want to call it, isn't oppressive. It just is.

And yes, the choices we have often aren't what we might like, and if we are i a sexual relationship, even if it is a good one, we may have to negotiate with our partner because we may not like or want the same things. Sometimes we can't all get what we want. That isn't oppression either. It wasn't oppression when reliable contraception didn't exist either, and the choice was generally celibacy or pregnancy.

Power plays can certainly come into human relationships and often do. But there is a big difference between saying a partner using power rather than having a respectful reciprocal relationship is oppressive, and having to choose between pregnancy and contraception and celibacy, and liking none off them really, is oppression. Who is oppressing you then? Your own body? Sometimes people do feel that way about the unchangeable realities of their bodies, but the only alternative is some sort of magical thinking, and it tends to lead to transhumanism as the only possible recipe for female liberation.

Women's choices don't tend to be 100% free under patriarchy.

It wasn't oppression when reliable contraception didn't exist either, and the choice was generally celibacy or pregnancy.

You think most men up until, say, the late 20th Century at least, but often to this day, would've 'let' their wives refuse them sex because they didn't want to get pregnant? Or for whatever reason? I really doubt that, and as women were (many still are) financially dependent on their husbands, or divorce wasn't at easy to obtain or had a stigma, women felt (and often feel) they have to have it when they don't want to.

As you know, marital rape wasn't even made illegal in the UK until the 90s, and is still legal in many countries. A lot of people still think it isn't a thing www.theweek.co.uk/98330/when-did-marital-rape-become-a-crime and by implication that men have a right to expect sex in marriage whether their wives want it or not.

You know how you spend your time reading these boards and trying to educate yourself and open yourself up to new viewpoints and opinions...

Sorry OP and others, I just can't entirely get my head around this one. Are you arguing that penetrative sex, all penetrative sex, is inherently oppressive? That there can be no penetrative sex, not chosen expressly for the purpose of trying to get pregnant, is inherently oppressive?

I see the inherent oppression and/or misogyny in so much in the world today, and like thousands of other women the past year's transgender debate and now lockdown has amplified a hundred times any small concerns we had beforehand. I'm reading these boards and learning and making my own opinions.

But the argument that penetrative sex is inately oppressive because of physical size difference and the possibility of pregnancy... Not that anyone cares whether I agree with them or not 😉 but there's something off about that, something which doesn't ring true.

Sorry OP and others, I just can't entirely get my head around this one. Are you arguing that penetrative sex, all penetrative sex, is inherently oppressive? That there can be no penetrative sex, not chosen expressly for the purpose of trying to get pregnant, is inherently oppressive?

IDK if I even mean PIV entirely, as that wouldn't make sense when it comes to my ex as it was pretty much not the focus with him, which was usually giving him oral for hours on end.

As to being open to opinions- yes, I was sharing with the previous poster that said women can just choose not to have sex my POV, of at least how that would be if someone were actually in a heterosexual relationship.

PP's made a good point, as you imply, on page 1, by saying it isn't necessarily a tool of oppression in and of itself, but it can be used as one by some men.

Pah haaaa. No.

Op, I think you are really missing the point around the nature of our bodies being inherently oppressive. Yes, our bodies can be used in a way we don't like sometimes. (Though you are really not correct in thinking that no societies have offered options for women around this, or that marriages in the past never allowed for refraining from sex and childbirth.)

Can women be oppressed through their female bodies is not the same as, are women oppressed by their female bodies.

Most people would agree the former can and does happen, many would say it's fairly common. The latter would be controversial, and what's the outcome of that view? That our bodies are unfair? Unjust? Wrong? That does not lead to good places, either in terms of people's psychological health or poltically.

Yes, I am aware that if women have sex without contraception, they can become pregnant. But that in itself is not oppression any more than we are oppressed by the fact that if we don't eat, we starve. Nature, or whatever you want to call it, isn't oppressive. It just is.

MOST women don't orgasm from penetrative sex. Do you think if men didn't orgasm from penetrative sex it would still be the default sex for hetero couple not trying to conceive? If "sex" just meant a raging hard on with no relief?

I'ts not that there is something oppressive about our bodies, it's the assumption that we will always take part in a kind of sex that is inherently more risky. WHen for MOST women it's not even the thing most likely to result in an orgasm.

Beyond actually trying to get pregnant there's no reason to take part in PIV for probably quite a lot of women. And the response to that isn't "I love PIV" yes, that's great but unless you're seriously uncreative there are a lot of other things you could be doing that are less risky and probably going to get you off more often.

There's a comedian on Netflix that made me laugh. She was brought up Christian and said that she'd talked about sex with her friends as a young twenty something and they'd been shocked that she'd never had sex. Then they told her that they'd never had orgasms and she was shocked. She'd avoided PIV sex but did everything else so was having orgasms all along. She couldn't figure out why they were still doing it.

Sorry OP and others, I just can't entirely get my head around this one. Are you arguing that penetrative sex, all penetrative sex, is inherently oppressive? That there can be no penetrative sex, not chosen expressly for the purpose of trying to get pregnant, is inherently oppressive?

I don't think it has to be a hundred per cent of the time but I think as feminists we should at least ask why a thing that is risky, and probably won't make you orgasm is seen as the default way to have sex. As for my previous post do you think PIV would be the default if most men couldn't orgasm from it?

In fact, now that a long of young men aren't orgasming to it due to their broken wank penises porn habits, it's becoming less the default and many young girls are being pressured into anal and violent sex as the default.

The default is always what men are into at any time.

I think rape is used as a tool of women's oppression, as is reproductive control.

Consensual sex, which respects the woman involved and cares about her pleasure isn't, to me.

It's not about individuals though.

No one has said no women should have PIV (on this thread unless someone could point me to it).

It's a class analysis thing around the history of men, women, sex, the laws around it all, what still happens, the dynamics, social issues etc etc

It's not about individuals. I'm a het woman and I have PIV. These conversations are not about individuals. I don't take any of it personally.

'Consensual sex, which respects the woman involved and cares about her pleasure isn't, to me.'

In real life, how much of sex between men and women, consensual PIV, involves respect, pleasure etc? I've met very few men who had a clue/ was not pretty much focused on what they want to do etc. Remember consensual sex goes across young teens just starting out, young people having ONS, as well as women with a caring partner who knows what she likes IYSWIM.

Even on here with older women re-entering the dating world there are loads of women reporting men doing stuff like slapping, spitting, hair pulling without previous consent. It comes back to male entitlement and their view (as a class) of women, girls, sex etc etc