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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is heterosexual sex a tool of women's oppression?

121 replies

NoMoreDickheads · 15/06/2020 10:13

Sex with my ex felt like it.

OP posts:
BarbieandKenBruce · 15/06/2020 21:40

I think it also depends on how you use the word oppressive. On grey days before a storm I sometimes say the weather feels oppressive, but I know there is no ill-feeling in meteorology In the example about starving if you don't eat - that applies to all living things equally pretty much. The 'oppression' in heterosexual sex is in the imbalance. A pregnancy could results from that interaction and one party could live their whole life not even knowing it occurred, the other could die because of it (I know these are extreme examples). The 'oppression' in a man being tricked into a pregnancy is more of a social one and actually technically escapable.
There's obviously no conscious intention in biology - it just is what it is, but the effects of it can feel oppressive, especially when used against you. If it didn't confer a disadvantage, and society didn't ignore that or use it against women, it wouldn't feel so.
I remember taking to my DH saying I wish we could decide between us who got pregnant and gave birth as I thought he'd be so much better at it than me. Felt a bit unfair but not oppressive because our relationship was equal, but biology was different so it just was what it was.
Amplify that to society in general and the equality between sexes would take a lot of the 'oppression' out of the biology.

Goosefoot · 15/06/2020 22:44

MOST women don't orgasm from penetrative sex. Do you think if men didn't orgasm from penetrative sex it would still be the default sex for hetero couple not trying to conceive? If "sex" just meant a raging hard on with no relief?

I think that people overall have a very strong desire to have penetrative sex, and a lot more women than you think would not want to go without it. Men and women do experience it differently so I don't think you can really compare directly.

Goosefoot · 15/06/2020 22:54

I totally agree that things that are just natural can feel oppressive, but that is a statement about psychology. It's not a useful analysis.

If we feel oppressed by the weather, and as a person who lives 6 months of the year in a wet winter I do at times, what are your choices? You can't change the weather. Move, or learn to like the cold wet.

If we as women are oppressed by the very nature of our female bodies, aren't we back to the very same viewpoint that to be a woman is an unfortunate thing and we'd all be luckier if we were men? Shouldn't we feel sad to bring girl children into the world as they simply won't be sexually fulfilled? What are the options? Give up sex and motherhood - man women would find that unsatisfying? Use science and technology to change the body somehow, maybe grow babies in tanks?

It's a very dystopian scenario.

BarbieandKenBruce · 15/06/2020 23:19

I think we can acknowledge that some things feel oppressive without that meaning that we have to change it. I guess that's the difference between something feeling oppressive (which is a kind of quality) and something being oppressing/an oppressor in which there is intention which could be challenged. This doesn't apply to biology/the weather so I don't feel the need to change it as such (I mean we can work on maternal mortality etc) but in general that's just reality as you say. I think we can still acknowledge the hardships of things we can't change (death for example) whilst also challenging aspects that aren't so determined (inequality and male violence).
I guess my take away is heterosexual sex doesn't need to be inherently oppressive, but whilst it takes place in a patriarchal society where the results of it can confer a disadvantage it can be.

PhoenixBuchanan · 15/06/2020 23:22

I don't think it has to be a hundred per cent of the time but I think as feminists we should at least ask why a thing that is risky, and probably won't make you orgasm is seen as the default way to have sex. As for my previous post do you think PIV would be the default if most men couldn't orgasm from it?

I think it would still be one of the defaults, yes. Even if an orgasm doesn't come directly from PIV, it is still extremely pleasurable, physically and psychologically, for a lot of people. I'd be pretty uninterested in sex without it.

Melia100 · 15/06/2020 23:31

Insofar as it keeps heterosexual women male-focused and male-centred, yes.

Wotchamecocker · 15/06/2020 23:39

Penetrative sex is great, orgasm or not.

I find it quite sexist against women to imply there’s something inherently oppressive or demeaning about PIV sex.

NoMoreDickheads · 15/06/2020 23:50

Op, I think you are really missing the point around the nature of our bodies being inherently oppressive

I didn't say our bodies are inherently oppressive, that would be silly, I said that our comparatively smaller size, and vulnerability to pregnancy, that we are easier to rape etc, is something that men can take advantage of and exploit (oppression.)

Though you are really not correct in thinking that no societies have offered options for women around this

Do you mean, like, becoming a nun or...? In the past I mean. One could be a governess, I suppose. Women's comparative lack of ability to earn would've made it even worse- though I suppose a lot of working class women have always earned throughout the Victorian era or whatever (I'm not a historian lol) it was only comparatively wealthy women who didn't work (or that's what I've heard.)

or that marriages in the past never allowed for refraining from sex and childbirth.

@Goosefoot- I think I more meant that refraining completely from sex in a relationship is not usually easy to do long term, and has consequences. And most men would be pretty pissed off at not getting the sex they think they're entitled to I reckon, and would
make their displeasure known in some way.

In fact, now that a long of young men aren't orgasming to it due to their broken wank penises porn habits, it's becoming less the default and many young girls are being pressured into anal and violent sex as the default. The default is always what men are into at any time.

@FishAreAcquaintancesNotFood That's a very good point. My ex would try and insist on anal every time during sex if he had the energy. He couldn't get off without some visual stimuli- that and he probably liked that it's seen as a bit taboo/dirty compared to PIV.

^Felt a bit unfair but not oppressive because our relationship was equal, but biology was different so it just was what it was.
Amplify that to society in general and the equality between sexes would take a lot of the 'oppression' out of the biology.^

True. If society didn't also promote sex roles, gender stereotypes, etc all of this would be lessened in society as a whole. How much we would be working against an inherent biological tendency of men to be rapacious or violent we will never know, but changing how we shape children's personalities and society would certainly help.

It's a very dystopian scenario.

I often think being free of most sex with men is a Utopian scenario TBH. Grin

If we as women are oppressed by the very nature of our female bodies, aren't we back to the very same viewpoint that to be a woman is an unfortunate thing and we'd all be luckier if we were men?

That's a different point but we probably would, wouldn't we? IDK about 'unfortunate' but it has few bonuses, unless maybe someone considers pregnancy/childbirth a bonus. Which isn't to say we can't find plenty of things to enjoy.

Shouldn't we feel sad to bring girl children into the world as they simply won't be sexually fulfilled?

IDK if when someone gives birth to a baby girl they think of their future sex life. Grin Although maybe sadly some people do look at their little girls and think how vulnerable they are and will be to men.

Women's lack of sexual fulfillment is not inevitable, I agree it's probably not rare and a shame though. I find a Magic Wand toy does the trick, but am open to a partner of either sex that happens to pass by and be entertaining, attractive and respectful (as a PP said, lovers, especially men, being respectful is certainly not a given.)

OP posts:
TehBewilderness · 16/06/2020 02:49

From the relationship board I get the impression that men's expectation that their sexual desires be gratified regardless of the health or well being, or even consciousness of their partner I would say that sex is oppressive for many women.

TehBewilderness · 16/06/2020 02:52

From a Feminist perspective it is the society acting on the assumption that all women are, and girls will grow up to be, heterosexual, that is oppressive.

FishAreAcquaintancesNotFood · 16/06/2020 08:21

In real life, how much of sex between men and women, consensual PIV, involves respect, pleasure etc?

I don't think people like to think of it that way as it makes them uncomfortable. If your partner is doing something that is broadly not for you but for his own enjoyment you're going to start having awkward feelings.

1 out of 13 women find PIV painful. 75% of women have said it has caused them pain at some point. Would we do anything that caused men pain on a regular basis outside of specific kinks?

Combined with posters who say it's not just about orgasms, you have to ask why isn't it? Because it certainly is for men. No doubt if they were not finishing from it we wouldn't be doing it.

Where are all the lesbians complaining about how unfulfilled they are because of the lack of penetrative sex.

PIV is natural but contraception and avoiding pregnancy is not so if we actively avoiding pregnancy it doesn't make sense for PIV to be seen as the norm. Also natural doesn't mean it's nice or wanted. Child birth is natural it hurts. Male cats have barbed penises. Barbed I tell you. Natural it is, but nice it ain't.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 16/06/2020 08:49

I think I more meant that refraining completely from sex in a relationship is not usually easy to do long term, and has consequences. And most men would be pretty pissed off at not getting the sex they think they're entitled to I reckon, and would
make their displeasure known in some way.

Pop over to the Relationship board and you will find many cases of women who's husbands are pissed off because they want sex and the wives don't.
You will also find many cases (although probably not equal) where the situation is reversed.
The popular narrative on FWR that women don't want heterosexual sex but we're oppressed into it, isn't that common outside this board.

alittlelower · 16/06/2020 09:18

I don't think heterosexual sex is necessarily oppressive, and I don't think it is helpful to tell women who enjoy it that it is. I do think that a lot of the culture and structure we have built up around heterosexual sex is deeply sexist, and often misogynistic. Violent misogynistic porn is mainstream now, and overtly shaping young boys (average age of watching porn is estimated at 11), heterosexual desire towards violent and degrading sex, even without this, culture undoubtedly emphasises male sexual pleasure over women's, our main from of contraception can reduce womens' libido, yet this isn't made clear to women when they start taking it (would men be expected to take contraception that did this to them?), at menopause women's clitoris' can shrink back into their bodies, yet not only do most women not know this, but where is the treatment for it? Everyone has heard of viagra! Where is the women's equivalent? It is also really telling that we as a culture have not real emphasis on how men can please women sexually. I once wanted to go to see a film about an African community where they have a tradition which centres on men sexually pleasing women, I cant' remember what it is called, but men regard it as a sign of pride if they master this technique and please their female partner. I wish I could remember it in detail, but do remember thinking it involved quite a lot of self-restraint on the part of the man. Certainly wasn't the type of ' give her a hard ramming and she'll have a screaming orgasm' type of thing you have always seen in porn.
There is a lot of male centring sexual shite around heterosexual sex - like one OP said - women after childbirth being given numbing creams when having sex - cos its ok if they get nothing out of sex, as long as it doesn't hurt them!

QuentinWinters · 16/06/2020 09:32

The popular narrative on FWR that women don't want heterosexual sex but we're oppressed into it, isn't that common outside this board.
GrinGrin
I think the narrative on FWR is women want pleasurable and mutually satisfying sex with men, but don't let the truth get in the way of a good story Grin

deydododatdodontdeydo · 16/06/2020 10:05

That's not the truth though, is it.
There's dozens of posts on here of women saying they are done with sex, and men in general.

QuentinWinters · 16/06/2020 10:31

Yeah, because they've had experiences of men being sexually abusive at worst or selfish at best.
I'm not engaging more on this because it feels like you're being deliberately goady

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 16/06/2020 10:39

Hopefully the narrative on fwr still allows for lesbian women not to want any sort of sex with men.

Intercourse by Andrea Dworkin has some food for thought on the topic of heterosexual piv sex.
I'm going to see if I can dig out excerpts.

No feminist is telling women what to do though. Just thinking through political implications of personal behaviour and circumstances.
The reactions here are a bit disproportionate. As it someone said 'clothing can be made in an exploitative context' and someone says 'but I like wearing clothes'.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 16/06/2020 10:39

*as if

NoMoreDickheads · 16/06/2020 10:40

Where are all the lesbians complaining about how unfulfilled they are because of the lack of penetrative sex.

I'm bi and like a bit of penetrative sex from a woman (I just enjoy the sensation, I must be built in such a way that it gets at my clit (sorry, TMI) more than other women. This doesn't mean it can't feel kind of 'nasty,' though. I think it's that when some men have sex with women, something about it demonstrates their disrespect of women. And of course they often nag for it when a woman doesn't want it.

I had a bloke that raped me and it wasn't about the sex, he just insisted on penetrating me violently against my will, because psychologically that sociopath got off on violating someone's consent.

Pop over to the Relationship board and you will find many cases of women who's husbands are pissed off because they want sex and the wives don't. You will also find many cases (although probably not equal) where the situation is reversed.

Deydo- Some women might want more sex from their husbands, but as a rule I don't think they would try and pressure/coerce their partners into it in the same unpleasant way as many men do. They might say to their partner that they would like more sex, but they wouldn't say things like 'I deserve it' or going round in a strop, slamming doors, pulling faces etc like some men do to try and get women to have sex with them to keep the peace or stop themselves from having to live under that atmosphere, which is oppressive coercion. I'm not saying there mightn't be a few rare women that do that but I imagine it's far rarer than the amount of men who put on a bad mood or demonstrate one to try and manipulate their partner.

The post where a poster said her partner made/encouraged his partner to come off anti-depressants against medical advice in the hope that he would get more sex- that happened to me, too. About one of the most miserable years of my life. He didn't get any more sex than he would've done, because I was so miserable I didn't have any libido at all.

OP posts:
SuperLoudPoppingAction · 16/06/2020 10:40

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.feministes-radicales.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Andrea-DWORKIN-Intercourse-1987.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiZx6SUhYbqAhWlRxUIHdUZAgMQFjATegQIExAB&usg=AOvVaw0Tvx7fCRgvL7rn89SALqVw" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.feministes-radicales.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Andrea-DWORKIN-Intercourse-1987.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiZx6SUhYbqAhWlRxUIHdUZAgMQFjATegQIExAB&usg=AOvVaw0Tvx7fCRgvL7rn89SALqVw This is a pdf but is the whole book

Angryresister · 16/06/2020 10:41

Lesbianism is a useful tool for countering the patriarchy!

deydododatdodontdeydo · 16/06/2020 10:44

as a rule I don't think they would try and pressure/coerce their partners into it

I didn't say they would.
Still, lots of women, even feminist women, enjoy and want heterosexual sex.
Political lesbianism is a no go for many. Even if I wanted to I couldn't force myself to fancy women.

PlanDeRaccordement · 16/06/2020 10:47

No,
Heterosexual Sex is not a tool of oppression on women.

It can be a reason for a man or men to oppress a woman or women.
Or vice versa. Hence sex trafficking.

Women have also used sex as a tool to coerce men. Like in the comedy Lysistrata.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 16/06/2020 10:50

I'm not sure whether Lysistrata is about coercion.

Is there not a difference between withdrawing consent for an activity and forcing an activity on someone?

I'm not a classicist but am thinking of the sex strike in Liberia as part of activism for peace. I dont know if you would get a Nobel peace prize for coercion.

hoodathunkit · 16/06/2020 10:54

Lesbianism is a useful tool for countering the patriarchy!

That sounds quite culty to me

Surely sex should be about pleasure, playfulness and intimacy, not about waging a political battle against the patriarchy or anything else?

Are you seriously suggesting that women who desire men sexually and not women should engage in sexual acts contrary to their nature in order to wage war against the patriarchy?

Mentioning this as I am always alarmed when people try to manipulate ther own or other people's sex lives for political reasons. It is an extremely common phenomena in cults.