Peak TERF

[MiraWard77]

Like many women I've been through a 'peak trans' moment sometime in the last few years.

We hear a lot about online radicalisation. I've heard GC feminism described as "a cult" and have wondered if I've been radicalised as much as the ROGD teens have been.

So if people have been radicalised to a 'peak trans' point, can the reverse happen?

Has anyone started off from a fully informed gender critical point and instead reached 'peak TERF' and embraced the flags and TWAW etc?

If the TRA narrative is valid, 'peak TERF' should be happening at an equal rate as 'peak trans'? Right?

Or does it depend on which "cult" you fall in to first as to which path you follow in learning about the whole field?

Yes. As I said, women/feminism did not cause this. We (here) have always been inclusive, prepared to support, and willing to show solidarity where it is legitimately needed.

That was not enough. They forced our hand.

I know where my line is, and I will not be moved.

@TyroSaysMeow
Thank you for that post. That is something I hadn't even considered.

I'm very sorry for the hate you face from the very people who should actually be supporting you, since they know your pain and have simply chosen a different path. They shouldn't be telling you that your path is wrong.

Great post Jelly

I agree that TW may be at risk in the male toilets/changing rooms/wherever, and while that should never be condoned, it simply isn't my problem to fix.

They're male supremacists, Bobbie, what do you expect?

There are plenty of women who share my experiences, in kind even if not in degree. Lots of them are on this board. We're dismissed as terfs.

Which is fucking ridiculous, when you consider that they also go on about how it's so amazing that people feel confident coming out as "trans" these days because society is so much more welcome, and blame the lack of visible "trans" people in history on cisnormative oppression or whatever.

Where do they think all the females born in the fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, who would have come out as trans if society had supported it, actually are?

Yes, and sets out a central flaw in trans ideology.

It is deeply rooted in misogyny and feminine/masculine/gender stereotypes, and completely obsessed with strictly enforcing and perpetuating each of those.

I know the point of this thread wasnt to educate me but it's been really good for that so thank you.

I guess I felt I needed some sort of permission to move my line to a stricter, women friendly stand rather than "we should try to be nice".

It's good to see such overwhelming support for that.

The most vulnerable males are children. Younger boys are normally allowed to accompany their mums into public toilets and changing rooms, but after a certain age they must use the male facilities. And unfortunately, some of them may be exposed to predatory older men there.

There are several suggested solutions to this problem. Mixed changing rooms with individual cubicles. Better security in public toilets. Teaching boys what to look out for and when to call for help. But what is never suggested, for obvious reasons, is that teenage boys be allowed to use the women's facilities.

Oh also meant to add homophobia and negation of lesbianism to that list of negative attributes.

"we should try to be nice"

I absolutely agree with this; we should try to be nice (as in kind, rather than doormat).

As feminists, we focus our kindness towards women.

If our kindness is directed towards men, and we're blind to the damage we're doing to women in the process, then we're unwittingly doing the work of male supremacy.

I think Jane fae is talking nonsense. Stonewall have backed self ID to the hilt and beyond. To suddenly go “oh no none of us really care about self ID it’s just a few twitter extremists” is disingenuous in the extreme to say the least

This. It's deflection. Why does Fae think the consultation received so many responses via trans rights groups?

Lies. Always so many lies.

but after a certain age they must use the male facilities

Another great argument for individual lockable cubicles (in addition to ladies, gents and disabled facilities). Dads with daughters and Mums with sons can use those when the kids reach an age that compromises the safety of the children and dignity and privacy of other adults.

Seeing as trans people make up a small percentage of the community, this additional group will strengthen the justification for these extra spaces.

What would make me change my mind?

Well, I'm an evidenced based kind of girl.
If we take single sex spaces:

1. For post-medical/surgical transition transwomen wanted to share female sex spaces I would have to see evidence that they were a) at risk from males, and b) no riskier to females than other females. On a personal level even if a. wasn't true and they could use male facilities safely, I would still support them using female facilities if that was important to their identity as long as b. also remained true. That's a more personal opinion though and I would listen to the concerns of others that disagreed with me.

However I think no one should feel they have to take hormones/surgery to fully live as they identify and I would have great concern over this being a requirement for access to female spaces and I can't think of a solution to how this would be policed in a dignified and inclusionary manner.

1. So that leaves pre-medical/surgical transition transwomen. For me to support them having access to female single sex spaces a. and b. would still apply, as would c) that men posed no more risk to women than other women. As if it's pre-transition it's something men could imitate.

1. Transmen. The evidence would have to be the same for transwomen, that they were a) more at risk from males and b) no more riskier to females than 'other' females. However I feel like the issue blends with pre-transition transwomen. If very well passing transmen could use female sex facilities I believe this could impact on their protection for women. I think part of their protection is the 'rules' in society are very clear. It's odd and incongruous to see a man entering a female changing room rather than their own. There are notices if a male attendent is in there to let people know for example. If a man entered people would notice it, people would call it out, people would doubt their intention and I imagine nearly every female in the changing room would take notice and most would question their presence. If it was normal and acceptable for passing transmen to use female facilities, I would question whether this lost females a layer of protection in their spaces and would again, need to see evidence that this wasn't the case. Or I would need to again see that c) men posed no more risk to females than other females.

1. My fourth point on single sex spaces is more about comfort and dignity. Risk and safety is important but I think a lot of men may prefer not to become undressed/naked around women and a lot of women may prefer not to become undressed/naked around men even if threat was removed. The reason men may want their own space I can't believe is down to fear, but their reasons of comfort are legitimate and so are women's.

For prisons/hospitals/refuges I'd take the same approach. Remember for refuges it would have to be proved that men were no more likely to hurt women than other women, so hopefully there wouldn't be the need for many refuges but I'd also apply my fourth point too. That comfort is valid. If abused women wanted a female only refuge - valid. If men only wanted their prostate examining by a man - valid, if a transman or woman wanted to be imprisoned with either sex - valid. This supports a third/fourth space approach.

Sports:
The same approach applies regarding risk, just change 'sharing space with' to 'competing with'. There is also fairness. I would have to see evidence that pre or post transition transwomen competing against females did not impact their ability to compete and win in that sport. I would also have to see that pre or post transition transmen competing against men was safe and fair in the same way.
It has to be noted that where sex differences have minimal impact on results, these sports are already mixed-sex. Equestrianism for example.

Legal recognition:
It would have to be proved that transwomen being legally recognised as women did not impact negatively upon(for example)

• natal women's ability to organise politically against sex-based oppression
• natal women's ability to assemble outside the presence of males
• natal women's access to educational programs created for females outside the presence of males
• the data collection of sex-based inequalities in areas where females are underrepresented
• the collection of sex-based crime statistics
• the legal right of females to be free from the presence of males in areas of public accommodation where nudity occurs
• natal women's access to grants, scholarships, board and trustee designations, representative positions and affirmative programmes for females
• the rights of natal women to create reproductive clinics, rape crisis services, support groups or any organisation for females
• media and all public discourse specific to females
• the rights of journalists to report the sex and history of subjects
• the rights of lesbians to congregate publically
• lesbian-specific organisations and advocacy groups
• the legal right of natal women to free speech related to sex roles and gender
• the legal right of women to protection from state-enforced sex-roles
• the legal right of girls to protection from state-enforced sex roles
• the patient right of dependent females to prefer female providers for their intimate care requirements
• the human right of female prisoners under state confinement to be housed separately from male prisoners

Note - The above list is not exhaustive and I have also not fact checked the above list in its entirety, apologies for any incorrect information.

So in summary (I'm sorry I can't believe how ridiculously long this ramble is!) I would support some sharing of legal protections and female only spaces and services when the need for them in the first place had been removed.
So if they could just sort out male violence, biological differences and the patriarchy that would be great.

That just leaves comfort. Now if male violence, biological differences and a patriary society had been eliminated I could see how in theory unwillingness to share space with men/transpeople (if it didn't conflict with other protected characteristics such as religion) could be considered transphobic. When we get there I will consider this position and listen with an open mind.

@BarbieandKenBruce "So if they could just sort out male violence, biological differences and the patriarchy that would be great."

If they sorted out male violence and the patriarchy then gender roles and the need for single sex spaces would kind of vanish and the problem would be solved.

Biological differences are not going to change no matter how much surgery or wishful thinking happens.

So, MRAs can just hop on and sort out the patriarchy and male violence then.

I've never bought into the twaw mantra and I can't see how I ever will.
I did used to have a softer stance. There were compromises that might have been reached. Third spaces. Extra provision. However every compromise suggested has been shot down and then vitriol poured on the person making the suggestion. My stance now is that male violence against transwomen isn't women's issue to fix. It should not involve opening up women's private spaces. I used to have some sympathy but the last tiny shred was gone having seen how JK Rowling has been treated.
This is not our problem to fix. Women's spaces are for women. Actual women. If you don't feel safe using the men's then campaign for your own space. Women had to and we're not sharing.

My issue is, I just cant hear myself saying that violence against trans women isnt my problem. No one should suffer violence and be told it isnt our problem.

Totally get you. Violence in society is everybody's problem, just as safeguarding vulnerable people is everybody's duty.

The problem though is not "violence against transwomen". The problem is male violence in general . But the solution to male violence is not to take it upon ourselves. Given that women are the main victims of male violence, women taking responsibility for men's violence would be the most disgraceful victim-blaming.

It has been discussed. There are a huge number of lies, inaccuracies and fabrications. It does not stand up to scrutiny.

Mermaid’s statement discussion here

and here

Male

Sorry posted by accident

Male violence is always the biggest elephant in the room with all forms of discrimination.

If we managed to eradicate it, I have a feeling that police brutality, racism, transphobia, homophobia, sexual assault and pedophilia would basically be eradicated too. Plus war! Sounds like a ridiculous perfect utopia, but all that would need to happen was an end to Male violence.

That might be simplistic, but it does not seem that complicated to me as an idea. Of course the issue is HOW.

Have we just accepted that Male violence is necessary and useful and so intrinsic we just have to accept it?

That might be simplistic, but it does not seem that complicated to me as an idea. Of course the issue is HOW

I see what your saying, but why would women even want to open that Hornets nest? If men cba or dont want to fix toxic masculinity then what would we be trying for? Frankly I've enough on my plate with campaigning for women, being called yet more names and being threatened by men for even broaching the subject.

Yes it would help everyone, cannot argue that fact, but why is yet another thing being put upon women. Can men do nothing for themselves? Also as we all know, if a man didnt say it, it was never said.
They can sort themselves out for me.

Some words missing, I'm sure you can figure it out 🙂

@Bananabixfloof

Oh I absolutely do not think women should be fixing the problem! I just think that Male violence is the big problem and that it relates to all other forms of discrimination and violence within society. Of course the men would have to fix it and of course they won't. I guess it's a bit cyclical! But it's the only thing that would actually change the debate. If we could eradicate Male violence we wouldn't need protecting from men, nor would Trans women and therefore the argument would be over. Instead it's between women and trans women when the problem is men. Men need to sort each other out. Instead of trans women fighting with "Terfs"