Peak TERF

[MiraWard77]

Like many women I've been through a 'peak trans' moment sometime in the last few years.

We hear a lot about online radicalisation. I've heard GC feminism described as "a cult" and have wondered if I've been radicalised as much as the ROGD teens have been.

So if people have been radicalised to a 'peak trans' point, can the reverse happen?

Has anyone started off from a fully informed gender critical point and instead reached 'peak TERF' and embraced the flags and TWAW etc?

If the TRA narrative is valid, 'peak TERF' should be happening at an equal rate as 'peak trans'? Right?

Or does it depend on which "cult" you fall in to first as to which path you follow in learning about the whole field?

"transwomen shouldn't be in womens spaces but they do need a safe space of their own, why not do that?".

That was more or less my position, but if you suggest it you will be told it’s akin to segregation and you are racist/colonialist and are invalidating transpeople and that’s literal violence.

So now I’ve moved onto ‘let them sort their own shit out because they won’t be happy until we have nothing left’.

I want them to have their own spaces. Not take ours. But that doesnt seem to be something that will be provided, and it doesnt sound like they will use them. I would have no trouble kicking a transwomen out of the women's toilets if there was a transwomen only safe space for them.

Surely that is one of the biggest issues - the TRA ideology states that trans women ARE women and therefore there can be no division, such as trans toilets, because that would constitute 'transphobia'. Even suggesting it is 'transphobia'. Anything less than TWAW is 'transphobia'.

Having had a full and frank discussion with some libfem friends, the crux of the matter is my belief that biological sex is absolute and the sole criteria in order to be called "woman", including women with DSDs. To them "woman", it means bio or trans woman. Neither of us are changing our minds in a hurry.

A great thoughtful thread.

Anything less than TWAW is 'transphobia'

Yes, I was told this too. I am accepting and kind and welcoming and would be er judge someone for their GI or discriminate against anyone. I don't hate or have a fear of trans people either.

So whilst most "-phobia" requires actual hate, fear or discrimination, transphobic can be simple disagreement. According to my friends.

never not be er*

Also, have just noticed the term ‘cult’ used in the OP.

I reject that term, adhering firmly to biological fact and material reality is not a cultic belief.

(I know it was in quotes, but am addressing it anyway.)

Sorry, @Ninkanink. Quotes used as "cult" is obviously a shorthand for those types of behaviours.

Interestingly it's used quite definitely in that Pink News article linked up thread.

I would use the term camp. There are definitely two distinct camps.

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong

Gosh, the more you look into this the more it really does have to be "sort your own shit out cause I'm done trying to help".

It's like it's going to be a war which wont end because one side has refused all attempts at compromise... and the world is going along with it because they want to be all fluffy and woke with the warm fuzzies.

Nothing will change my mind about allowing pre-op trans women into female only spaces. However, I'm not longer sure about the blanket "no transwomen in female only spaces". Once they've had surgery...

I feel very uncomfortable at telling people that they can only earn something if they have had body modifications. That interferes with their bodily autonomy. It also implies that 'woman' is a club you can join. It is not. It is a state of being over which we have no control. We can't identify into or out of being women.

Transwomen who generally look feminine and dress like it wouldn't be safe in male spaces.

Why is male violence women's problem to solve?

But, above all, the TRA position is a faith-based ideology. "I believe, therefore you must, too." Would you accept Jews or Muslims saying you cannot celebrate Christmas? Or, you can celebrate Christmas, but only in a way that reflects their practices? Would you accept Sikhs banning your turkey and ham on Christmas Day? Would you accept Dawkins capturing the government and having laws passed forbidding you from practicing your faith? Imagine if saying "Inshallah" was considered hate-crime.

Outrageous and unbelievable in the 21st century. Yet this is what the TRAs want. They want a new theocracy, to turn freedom of thought and expression into blasphemy against their theology.

And this is why I will never be converted to their faith or ideology. They want to control and restrict people. I want to free people - to ensure that people are not boxed-in by prejudice or fear.

but they do need a safe space of their own, why not do that

I thought we should be allies. But that doesnt appear to be the case. I just wanted to be education as to why

I think everyone I have discussed this with always says immediately third spaces.
Apparently third spaces are transphobic because they are women, and women together is the only way.
It's a circular argument that gets us nowhere.
If you want to campaign for third spaces be our guest. We cant make anyone use it even if it was provided, but crack on.

We’ve been saying third spaces for years.

It doesn’t fulfil the true criteria.

@JellySlice

It's a debate I'm new too, and still trying to think through without harming any vulnerable group. I think I've explained that I'm still trying on this thread.

The more you read, the more you see that their cant be a compromise and trying to be "nice" is just going to end up with women being violated. But I'm new to this and I'm asking questions; I'm not trying to push my very unformed musings onto you.

Be very careful with ‘Be Nice.’

Very often it means ‘Know your space; Shut your mouth; Take what I give you and like it.’

As gender critical thinking is based on truth, logic and biology, I cannot really see anyone who is GC then reversing their thinking and introduce fantasy into real life situations.
I believe TWATW and TMAM, I do not think anyone can change sex (gender is a different matter) and that people are born male or female (with a tiny number of intersex conditions for the pedantic people).
As previous posters have stated, campaign for third spaces, but do not insist that you have a right to invade female spaces if you were born male. That IMHO goes against the equality act, but more importantly it goesw against moral behaviour which has been ingrained into us over a very long period of time.

@BobbieDraper given your work with women fleeing domestic violence, there is plenty of reading and research you might want to do regarding refuges for vulnerable women in Canada (for example) and here, rape crisis centres and prisons here in the U.K., bra fitting rooms/services in M&S (for example) and what has already happened and will continue to happen until this utter madness is ended once and for all.

I should have said "TMATM" - wish there was an edit button.

I apologise, BobbieDraper, if that reads like an attack on you, or in any way personal. Not intended. I was just replying to points that I feel are important.

do you know where to find stats on violence against women by men and violence against trans women/men by men? Or violence by women, for that matter

Here's an interesting experiment for everyone. Type into Google 'women killed 2020.' What do you notice about the results of this search?

The problem is the majority of men don't want other men who aren't like them, in their spaces. "It's dangerous for the minority, so we need to shove them in with the women", doesn't address the true problem, which is male violence, disrespect and ridicule, towards other men, who they no longer wish to even class as "real" men. Women have enough battles (so to speak) with male patriarchy as it is, without getting burned by male on male violence too.

Stats can be found here in this topic, I’m sure. But I wouldn’t know where...

Here’s an interesting question on stats:

If men who say they are women are literally women, in law or otherwise, and statistics are recorded on that basis, what will that do to statistics on domestic violence, sexual assault and rape?

Surely that is one of the biggest issues - the TRA ideology states that trans women ARE women and therefore there can be no division, such as trans toilets, because that would constitute 'transphobia'. Even suggesting it is 'transphobia'. Anything less than TWAW is 'transphobia'.

I think there's some merit in separating out "transphobia" directed towards males from "transphobia" directed towards females.

I don't identify as trans, because I can see the sexism of the basic premise, but I certainly meet the definition, including the dysphoria (which only gets medicalised if you describe it in genderist terms; if you use feminist language you'll basically be laughed out of the doctor's office).

I actually find it very helpful to be among people who accept and understand that women (as in females) don't have to conform to stereotypes, and that this doesn't make us lesser, or non-women, and that the people who've suggested it does are horrible little bullying shits who don't deserve a moment's brain-space.

As an actual female woman with serious gender issues (complex trauma's a right pain in the arse in so many ways) I have a legitimate claim to the label trans; and yet they denounce me as an evil bigot who deserves to be raped (again) because I don't tackle my dysphoria by denouncing my sex-class membership. This is what actual transphobia, directed at actual women who are doing their best to heal from the traumas of gendered, sex-based violence, looks like.

@BobbieDraper

Fionne Orlander uses the men's toilets and appears to have no problem doing this, despite looking very feminine.

twitter.com/FionneOrlander/status/1067114320495034369

I also wonder why toilets are seen as so 'unsafe' for feminine presenting men? I can't imagine gangs of thugs lying in wait for someone who looks 'wrong' in the men's toilets in a restaurant or supermarket for example. Most men will just go in there to use the toilet and then leave.

@Ninkanink
I worry about statistics with medical treatments too. If biological males can be entered into studies as female.

Women's healthcare is shit as it is; if they start basing our treatments on studies using men on both side, what happens to our health?

I understand the risks women are now facing when they seek help from violence and are boe expected to allow men into those safe places. It seems totally unbelievable.
My issue is, I just cant hear myself saying that violence against trans women isnt my problem. No one should suffer violence and be told it isnt our problem. But if third spaces are a no-go, then I will side with women.