Peak TERF

[MiraWard77]

Like many women I've been through a 'peak trans' moment sometime in the last few years.

We hear a lot about online radicalisation. I've heard GC feminism described as "a cult" and have wondered if I've been radicalised as much as the ROGD teens have been.

So if people have been radicalised to a 'peak trans' point, can the reverse happen?

Has anyone started off from a fully informed gender critical point and instead reached 'peak TERF' and embraced the flags and TWAW etc?

If the TRA narrative is valid, 'peak TERF' should be happening at an equal rate as 'peak trans'? Right?

Or does it depend on which "cult" you fall in to first as to which path you follow in learning about the whole field?

Abuse of women and abuse of transwomen are not mutually exclusive. They both can, and do, occur. To ignore that is despicable.

No-one has ignored that. Many types of men suffer violence and abuse in public life, for many reasons (the common denominator usually being male violence).

I didnt say that trans-women after surgery SHOULD be granted access to our spaces. I said they are at risk from men and that cant be ignored. Because of that, I dont know if I could demand they left a women's toilet, if they had no other safe location to use.

And what about other men who might feasibly suffer abuse in a male toilet? Maybe you should start a campaign for a redesign of men’s public toilets so that all men are safer in them?

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong "I’d say not but for some trans people it’s v important (because they want to be husband and wife rather than say, husband and husband or wife and wife or vice versa)"

But isn't that a bit... homophobic? From a group that's going to some extreme lengths to tag itself on to LGB rights and history?

@Dances "And I am sure as fuck that I don't want to share female spaces with males with AGP" I can't disagree with that sentiment.

What's the stats on TW with AGP vs TW with dysphoria (I appreciate there may well be an overlap).

As in, is the TW I've bumped into in the loos more likely to be dysphoric and "just wants to pee" or more likely to be getting off on my apparent belief in their womanhood? (Because I've had a lifetime of female socialisation and whatever I think I'll smile politely and try not to upset them, obviously)

@Ninkanink

Thank you.

I am sorry if I come across as against women, but until recently I didnt pay much attention to the debate and was sort of "oh, let's all just get along". The only people in my life who were vocal about this were in the queer community, and their views were very one sided. I've only recently woken up. Sorry.

@OldCrone I didn't know about that. Thanks for the link.

No need to apologise! I hope I didn’t come across as challenging anywhere. I am firm, that’s all. I know exactly where my line is, and I will not be moved.

@Ninkanink
Again, I dont know.

I wouldn't be standing in the hallway inviting transwomen into the women's toilets, but I just dont know if I could tell a very "female looking" person to go into the men's where men will see them and possibly treat them the way violent men have treated biological women.

But at the same time, I dont want men in my space.

I would camping for trans spaces... but it sounds like they wont use them. So, my opinion at the moment is that it all sucks and we are the ones being pushed aside and left with no real alternate to fight back with (because as a woman, simply saying no is apparently not enough).

Hang on though, if something like 80% of young trans identifying people will eventually desist and become gay adults, isn't a diagnosis of dysphoria and subsequent medical pathways encouraging an identity of transgender actually a form of conversion therapy?

From dysphoric/GC lesbian to transman is gay conversion therapy, isn't it?

And isn't this what's happening in places like Iran?

Abuse of women and abuse of transwomen are not mutually exclusive. They both can, and do, occur. To ignore that is despicable.

You know what they have in common? Overwhelmingly perpetuated by males.

So, as women have so far been unable to stop two British women a week dying at the hands of their male partner or male ex partner, why lump the responsibility for protecting transgender males from other males on top of us as well?

Unless you don’t actually care about solving Male violence, but are truly motivated by something else?

‘Validation’ seems to be the priority on trans Reddit...

Above response was meant for @DixieFlatline

Sorry @Ninkanink!

Mira
In order to stay within MN guidelines, I am not going to link stats re. AGP. This information is easily goggleable though.

If you can hit peak TERF, why do so many trans advocates tell their minions not to read stuff like JK's essay? Why aren't they encouraging them to read it to pick it apart or laugh at it? Because they only have feelings and clownfish and are constantly told they're going to kill themselves.

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong do you know where to find stats on violence against women by men and violence against trans women/men by men? Or violence by women, for that matter.

Sex disaggregated violence/abuse statistics. (Having read Invisible Women I'm pretty I know the answer to this)

It's al the non binary stuff I don't get..

Probably because it doesn't make sense unless you accept the premise that "man" and "woman" are 'gender identities' aka sex-role stereotypes rather than physiological realities.

If a girl doesn't identify with the horribly pornified cultural construction of femininity/womanhood, basic genderist logic dictates she must be a man. But if she equally doesn't identify with the cultural construction of masculinity/manhood, then she can't be a man either. Non-binary is basically just a fudge invented to avoid having to accept and point out that these constructions of masculinity and femininity are, not to put too fine a point on it, a load of sexist bollocks.

I don't accept that basic premise, and I never will, because it, y'know, causes dysphoria.

I just dont know if I could tell a very "female looking" person to go into the men's where men will see them and possibly treat them the way violent men have treated biological women.

If some men are violent towards some other men, what has this got to do with women?

Once they've had surgery, they are at risk of the same sexual assault that biological women are.
But they are still as dangerous to women as other men are. That’s the problem.

Rapists (trans or not) can penetrate women with other implements, often causing more serious injuries. I have read reports of that by men in women’s prisons. Rapists can also penetrate either sex anally.

But isn't that a bit... homophobic? From a group that's going to some extreme lengths to tag itself on to LGB rights and history?

It certainly reads that way, yes.

But then, lots of transactivism is homophobic, such as calling lesbians (definition = human female exclusively attracted to other human females) ‘vagina fetishists’.

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong

I am very active in ending male violence. I'm a business owner who gives a hell of a lot of money to help women in those situations and to find a way forward. So my focus was never on the transgender debate and I've swung from "cant we all just live and let live" to "men shouldn't be in womens spaces and that's all from me" to "transwomen shouldn't be in womens spaces but they do need a safe space of their own, why not do that?".

I thought we should be allies. But that doesnt appear to be the case. I just wanted to be education as to why.

@OldCrone

I would say male violence is something everyone needs to think about. I couldn't in good conscience send someone into the lion's den, as it were.

And I guess that's the issue. There are brave enough women who will hold their beliefs no matter what, and then there are the women who have spent their lives being told to "be kind".

I'm trying to shake that. I help women fleeing violence. I find it hard to abandon a sub-set of men to that same violence just because they are men.

Hang on though, if something like 80% of young trans identifying people will eventually desist and become gay adults, isn't a diagnosis of dysphoria and subsequent medical pathways encouraging an identity of transgender actually a form of conversion therapy? From dysphoric/GC lesbian to transman is gay conversion therapy, isn't it?

Exactly. This is why trans groups hate genuine gay and lesbian groups such as the LGB Alliance.

Yes, and lesbians (many times very young and very vulnerable), being threatened, intimated, bullied and harangued because they don’t want to have sex with a man who says his penis is a lady penis.

*intimidated

I want them to have their own spaces. Not take ours.

But that doesnt seem to be something that will be provided, and it doesnt sound like they will use them. I would have no trouble kicking a transwomen out of the women's toilets if there was a transwomen only safe space for them.

My argument would be if society wasn't so freaked out by feminine men, men in dresses and make up etc, these men wouldn't need therapy, and actually probably don't need therapy. You're parents and friends voicing that you wanting to wear lipstick and necklaces, or having private kinks, is riddiculous, makes you a freak, or worse it's a sign you need medical help, must be awful. I don't think anyone who doesn't conform to societies expectations is silly or riddiculous, but I think the tra "they were born in the wrong body, and must be fixed" arguments are. I was a goth and loved our local scene of all sorts of non conformist types, and the local gay bar and the atmosphere of "anything goes, no one is judging you".

Everyone should be allowed to be who they are, and dress and present how they want, without feeling the need to re-label themselves as women, take over womens spaces, or have surgery.

*Your (excuse typos)