'Dismantling cisgender privilege'

[SistemaAddict]

I've just been on the Black Lives Matter website to find out more about the movement and found this:

"We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence.
We build a space that affirms Black women and is free from sexism, misogyny, and environments in which men are centered."

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

"Cisgender privilege" and ooh look we are centring the men whilst stating we aren't

I'd be interested to see statistics on black transwomen in relation to the above claims and compare them with various other statistics.

I'm too tired to get all my thoughts out but that privilege comment has really got to me.

Being a trans person who is imperfect at passing puts you below biological women

But if you don’t ‘pass’ as a woman, you are surely perceived to be a man?

And Male privilege is definitely a thing.

*If I look at the way my relative is treated, women assume they are a threat, and men assume they are a cissy/traitor, so they are treated worse than a non-trans person who is biologically male. As I said, because they see trans as traitors, men won't let my relative use the men's toilet.+

That’s not women having ‘cis’ privilege, that’s the male pecking order. Gross, sure, but not women’s problem to fix. We campaigned for toilets and other facilities for female people in order to exclude ALL male people.

Y’know, for our own safety, dignity and privacy.

As a biological woman I at least don't have to worry about whether there will be a toilet for me, because if there is one for men then there will definitely be one for me.

Either you are very posh and have never had to worry about stuff like men putting their heads under the cubicle, avoiding drug users, trying to keep your foot wedges against a broken door/missing lock

Or you’ve never had a baby in a push chair that won’t fit through the loo door

Or you’ve never had a sensitive bladder/pregnancy or age related incontinence leave you desperate for a non existent loo.

Penis people (of all genders and all mobility levels) can wazz behind a tree. Very hard when you have the anatomy that needs to squat and are pregnant and.10 days overdue or a senior citizen with knee problems.

As a previous poster said ‘Cis privilege my arse’.

I’m going to say it here, just because I say this everywhere I see it mentioned.

Do not use Cis to describe me. It is hugely offensive and I reject it entirely.

I am not a subset of what a man has decided he is. I am a woman.

It is not true that if there is a toilet for men there will be one for women. In many cases where toilets have become ‘gender neutral’ it is the women’s toilets that are appropriated. Men’s stay intact. That is not right, and should not happen.

Absolutely, trans individuals are entitled to safe spaces. They have a right to go about their business peacefully and without fear of harm.

This needs to be afforded to them without appropriating women’s safe spaces to the advantage of men.

(Sorry, I know this isn’t really discussing the main topic of the thread, but it needed to be said)

As for ‘c** privilege, just don’t even try to seriously argue that.

It is male privilege through and through, from every angle.

"We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence.
We build a space that affirms Black women and is free from sexism, misogyny, and environments in which men are centered.

I think we can agree that a large proportion of the violence black trans women face is from men so I see that as a male issue.

Is there any mention of black trans men? GNC black women seem to genuinely face disproportionate misogyny, antagonism and violence. I can't imagine trans men have it any easier.

. If there isn't a disabled toilet, then she just has to hold it and hope that she doesn't wet herself.

Omg! That's terrible!

Imagine if you were actually disabled

Transmen ways get ignored.

They get a special mix of misogyny and actual transphobia reserved just for them.

I think 'cis privilege' is a very simplistic term which doesn't really get to the root of what privilege means.

I think many of trans women see women as having privilege over them because especially late transitionsers have an idealised view of what it is to be a woman without recognising the benefits that they have from growing up male. They start to present as female and suddenly their voice is no longer heard, they are not taken seriously, they are judged on their appearance and they see that as transmisogyny but it isn't, its the reality of life for 'people who are not men'.

Given birth and gynaecological outcomes for black women in the states are woefully even more terrible than for white women (as they are here) I imagine they're even lower on the heap of privilege.

Trumped again by men.

This strikes me over and over again as a repeat of the frequent MN bunfight on 'if you've parked a buggy in the disabled space on the bus, should you move if a wheelchair user needs it'.

You will always find those arguing that they are so disadvantaged having a buggy and being unable to fold it and their child is asleep and it's not safe to ask anyone else to hold the child, and it's their space as much as a wheelchair user's and they were there first and on and on and on.

The facts stand that disabled spaces were provided for wheelchair users after decades of campaigning. They are designated for wheelchair users - the fact that they are useful to people with buggies doesn't change that - and without those spaces, wheelchair users can't access a bus. Or get to work. Or travel independently. Or affordably. Those spaces are their equality, their independence.

But you will always find the spectacularly selfish arguing that their disadvantage means they are more important and entitled to that space than those it was designed for. While not bothering to, say, campaign for additional buggy spaces to go on busses instead of taking away other people's provision and damaging their access.

Transmen ways get ignored.

Its just always so obvious isn't it. Its such a male centred movement, I'm talking about TRAs, not your average trans person, boils down to "I want to look like a woman but still be treated like a man"

In the media, trans women get articles detailing their brave and stunning business achievements, and trans men hit the headlines for being pregnant. 🧐

Bang on Michelle. Excellent analogy.

I felt awful the few times I had to use the disabled loos to breastfeed a cantankerous baby when it was pissing it down/ no where to sit /too noisy (I had latch issues and had to listen for the clicks), but strangely all the baby changes facilities are lumped into the disabled toilet... I tried not to use busses unless I had a sling and had left the buggy behind. But we have metros in the north east.

My point being male designers are rather shit.

.... Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence.

It may well be true that black transwomen are disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence, and that should certainly be combatted.

However, what this seems to be missing is any information on whether black women are also disproportionately affected by misogynistic violence. I don't know the answer to that because this seems not to be something that's reported on. As has been noted, if you do a google search for anything to do with murders of black women, you will overwhelmingly (if not exclusively) get hits about black transwomen. I don't believe for one moment that black women aren't victims too - just that they are not newsworthy. Violence against women is the norm - the discrepancy is invisibility not 'Cis privilege'.

They even fucking appropriate the whole "invisible disability" movement (eg, a stoma) with "not all menstruators are women" crap.

Cis privilege my arse.

My point being male designers are rather shit.

Quite.

And to take that analogy further: no one is saying mothers with buggies don't have access issues. No one is saying it's not very hard to access public transport with small children and a buggy in tow. No one is saying that the journey for a parent and child might be as crucial as that of a wheelchair user. No one is saying that it's not a problem that busses haven't been designed to offer enough space for wheelchair users and parents with buggies to use at the same time.

The issue is that a group without that specific disadvantage have commandeered the provision made specifically for the management of that disadvantage, and it's provision that group are dependent on. The commandeerers sometimes move when a wheelchair user would be excluded from the bus if they don't, but more often on MN the commandeerer has a tantrum because they want their need met and don't care how it impacts on someone else.

Commandeering it and insisting on entitlement to it further disadvantages the people it was intended for, and when you analyse which of the two groups involved have more power, more choice, more options..... it becomes obvious which group need to respect other people's rights and needs and do something different about it. Such as campaign for additional spaces so that everyone's needs are met.

Bus groups and law have been fumbling anxiously around the need for a while to stand up to and defend wheelchair user spaces from able bodied people with buggies, and insist those spaces keep the brief they were designed for. They don't quite dare to, because one group has way more power than the other.

Same issue with female spaces.

Cis privilege is...

Cis privilege completely denies the fact that women are oppressed all around the world solely because of their sex.

And if trans women were actually women like they constantly tell us, they’d recognise that.

Also, who is born cis? You are born black. You are born male or female. You may be born with some disabilities; others occur later.

Cis is - what exactly?

Please let’s not keep repeating that highly offensive word. It gives it legitimacy and affords credence to the highly offensive basis on which it is built.

Yes, sorry. I'm Incensed by it after a few days of arguments.

If I look at the way my relative is treated, women assume they are a threat, and men assume they are a cissy/traitor, so they are treated worse than a non-trans person who is biologically male. As I said, because they see trans as traitors, men won't let my relative use the men's toilet.

Then you and your relative need to address men. Women are not support humans.

As a biological woman I at least don't have to worry about whether there will be a toilet for me, because if there is one for men then there will definitely be one for me.

Not so. Many places are retaining male facilities while making female ones mixed sex, because it's all cubicles so "we shouldn't mind".