I think trans women are women.....

[rabbitwoman]

i think transwomen are women.

i think that women that are not transwomen need a special set of laws and rights to protect them because they are and have been subject to many centuries of oppression. They need laws and protections around childbirth and breastfeeding. they need support around menstruation.

women that are not transwomen will be susceptible to cancer of the overaries and womb, endemetriosis, and also respond very differently to some diseases and medicines

It would be very useful to put all these women who are not transwomen into one demographic category so that these issues can be directly identified and tackled.
this need not conflate with transgender rights.

Aslo, women that are transwomen will have been subject to a unique form of sexual abuse, harassment and prejudice. they will require specialist medical treatment to negotiate things like prostrate and testicular cancer within their own identity. they will respond very differently to some diseases and medicines.

It would be very useful to put all these women who are transwomen into one demographic category so that these issues can be directly identified and tackled.
this need not conflate with women's rights

i propose that for these purposes we could use the words 'transwomen' and 'women'

as well as 'transmen' and 'men'

is this wrong?

*biological women.

Predictably.

Being a bit cautious I was very very careful not to say I agreed with JK, and very careful not to comment on the subject of the transgender debate, but I just said that the debate needs to be more respectful, calm and reasonable. I was still berated for not disagreeing with JK!!

I also said that I was interested in protecting women 's rights and safe spaces and was told that segregating toilets into men and women was like apartheid and not necessary for safety.

It feels like quite a dangerous thing, just to point people in the direction of the debate. But I do know that possibly dozens of my friends have read it, not commented but have scratched their heads and gone huh? What's all this, then, what's going on? I never heard of this before, this is rhubarb!!!

Yes, Rabbit, I think transwomen are transwomen too.

But I'm not on board with your OP describing women as "women who are not transwomen". Was that accidental? trying to be funny? just making a point? Because I am not a subset of transwomen FFS.

I get you OP.

But I’m now so heartily sick that I’m afraid I struggle even with the term transwoman.

Oh I see I'm not the only one

Am I the only one who thought the OP’s tongue was firmly in cheek?

i propose that for these purposes we could use the words 'transwomen' and 'women'

as well as 'transmen' and 'men'

I read the whole post and that’s what I took from it.

Transwomen are biological males who feel they should be women. They are not women in the same as women born with wombs etc.

I agree with JK. Live however you want. But your biology is fixed.

Ya, tongue in cheek it was.....

I see what you're getting at, OP, but you missed a bit.

What word are we to use to encompass both women and women-who-identify-as-men?

Because this:

women that are not transwomen will be susceptible to cancer of the overaries and womb, endemetriosis, and also respond very differently to some diseases and medicines

is equally applicable to "transmen".

However, I am becoming more and more concerned that thus us not a debate we are winning, because people just don't listen, do they?

Nothing wrong or transphobic or exclusionary about what JK has said.... But it's exploding around her and anyone who doesn't openly strongly condemn her....

I really think that it will take more sexual assaults, more teenage pregnancies at girl guide camp, more gold medals for men in women's sports before people finally say 'oh yeah...... Hmmm..... Why didn't anyone say anything, then?'

@rabbitwoman oh wow. That’s crazy. I’m not sure that I can enter the debate and not say what I think! But saying what I think may cost me a few friendships...

This is my first post on this board, so I am still learning. Apologies in advance if this comes across as stupid .

But if we are so into language and trans women are women, why not them them be that and define “women” as the social construct of gender.

And reserve (biological) female for the biological sex (with female only sport, female toilets, female specific healthcare, female specific legal protection etc).

Then there could be “women only” knitting circles, make-up courses, anything that floats peoples’ boats really. I doubt I personally would attend as I don’t fit very well into the gender construct, but many might?

I really think that it will take more sexual assaults, more teenage pregnancies at girl guide camp, more gold medals for men in women's sports before people finally say 'oh yeah...... Hmmm..... Why didn't anyone say anything, then

i think you're right! I of the feeling that this is going to get even worse before it eventually burns itself out in its own contradictions. 20+ years of woke, intersectionalist identity politics of every persuasion.

20+ more years to go

I'd rather not have the word woman associated in any way with any false, sexist stereotype so that any male person can wear it.

After all, there are 3.8 billion women and girls, and pretending that male people are PREFIX-women, by necessity involves deciding for us that what we - women - are, is something utterly false and frankly offensive.

Some things are just not identities, and pretending otherwise is a lie that badly impacts the people who ARE those things.

able bodied cannot identify as Disabled
White cannot identify as Black
Adult cannot identify as Child
Not pregnant cannot identify as Pregnant
Male cannot identify as female

These are not identities for anyone to claim, they are material states that a person objectively is, or is not. You have to UNrecognise the actual people who ARE these things to bestow the words on those who are not.

There is zero offence to be taken from naming men as men, when we understand that man is the word for their bodily sex.
The contrived offence is nothing more than outrage that women won't obey.

But I’m now so heartily sick that I’m afraid I struggle even with the term transwoman.

Yes. That ship has sailed for me.

@Justhadathought

I really think that it will take more sexual assaults, more teenage pregnancies at girl guide camp, more gold medals for men in women's sports before people finally say 'oh yeah...... Hmmm..... Why didn't anyone say anything, then

i think you're right! I of the feeling that this is going to get even worse before it eventually burns itself out in its own contradictions. 20+ years of woke, intersectionalist identity politics of every persuasion.

The thing that terrifies me is the prospect of some weird Orwellian future in which people just look at the three transwomen on the Olympic podium and smile and say "isn't it amazing how good transwomen are at sport?"

They look at the sexual assault stats and say "See, we told you women do it too, not all men, etc. etc..."

They look at the teenage girls coming home pregnant from guide camp and immediately victim-blame the girls for not gatekeeping their bodies well enough.

(After all, we've just seen Emma Watson, she of the "She for He" campaign, piss all over JKR's disclosure of her past sexual abuse. I think that tells us exactly how the woke generation will handle this.)

I am a woman, I am not a “not man” .
What a ridiculously mealy mouthed way of saying women.
Of course transwomen are not women. In what possible way are they women ? In a “feelings” way ? Quantify what feelings all women have in common that they also share with trans males ?
In an appearance way ? Take a look at the many hetero men who now identify as lesbians while sporting beards and bald heads.
There is nothing at that all women and male sex trans people have in common apart from humanity.

Tyro good point. The word for people who have ovaries is female.

An adult female is a woman.

But we cant use those definitions as its transphobic.

I think its a good post OP. You sum up the problem; males will not allow us to have a word which includes us and not them.

But if we are so into language and trans women are women, why not them them be that and define “women” as the social construct of gender

I'd say it is the other way around. Transwomen are the construct of gender...literally. Transgenderism. Women are women, however they identify or define, or express themselves.

After all, we've just seen Emma Watson, she of the "She for He" campaign, piss all over JKR's disclosure of her past sexual abuse. I think that tells us exactly how the woke generation will handle this

Yes! there is a very dark, deep shadow which is in direct contradiction to the overt/outer protestations and statements of equality/respect etc

.... I may just leave them to it. I have my house, my sports career is over, my child bearing days are over, my days of menstruation are drawing to a close, I am no longer as much of a sexual being so have seen the casual sexual assaults I have been subjected to all my life subside in recent years, I actually don't care if a pervert wants to look at my boibs when I try on a bra or video me having a poo (I really don't.....)

I have been trying to help those who come after me but if they don't want it, I might just back off.

I WILL help them lick up the pieces though. Because I am Hufflepuff. Known for loyalty.

I think that this whole debate would be a lot clearer if feminists stopped using the Orwellian term 'transwomen' altogether. There's a perfectly good word already for adult male human beings. We are just scared to use it.

And if we did come up with a different word for women, say 'wombans', then men would demand that word too, and would immediately start claiming to be 'transwombans'.

After all, there are 3.8 billion women and girls, and pretending that male people are PREFIX-women, by necessity involves deciding for us that what we - women - are, is something utterly false and frankly offensive.

This.

The contrived offence is nothing more than outrage that women won't obey

The sound of ideology crashing against inevitable resistance.

coffee what you suggest sounds so reasonable and definitely not stupid (although it's conceding more than any other oppressed class would ever be asked to, after intense threat that is indistinguishable from the very oppression experienced by women in the first place) and despite disagreeing on moral grounds I would go along with that idea if it meant I could organise with left wing people again about other pressing issues such as poverty, racism etc.

But female is already taken too. If transwomen are women then they have female biology, duh? (I'm sorry I don't have time to link but I promise this is all out there on twitter etc). If you ask for a female practitioner to do your smear test or indeed if you end up on a female ward.... Well the NHS records staff and patient data with "female" being a self declaration of gender ID.