What constitutes your identity?

[Z0rr0]

The dictionary definition is 'the fact of being who or what a person or thing is'.
To expand: The definition of identity is who you are, the way you think about yourself, the way you are viewed by the world and the characteristics that define you.
[In maths an identity is 'a transformation that leaves an object unchanged'.]
Wikipedia says: Identity is the qualities, beliefs, personality, looks and/or expressions that make a person or group. One can regard the categorizing of identity as positive or as destructive. A psychological identity relates to self-image, self-esteem, and individuality.

I'm asking this because both Radcliffe and Redmayne have talked about JKR's comments 'invalidating trans identities' or having their 'identities questioned'.
Someone on here said something I thought was brilliant the other day:
Many misgender trans women, say that only women who were born female have the right to identify as female, and so on.
Since when did anyone have the right to identify as anything?
I need sex based rights regardless of my identity. If I could just identify out of being female, I wouldn't need sex based rights.

I think I would argue that how someone identifies is slightly different to their identity. I'm thinking about 'identity theft' or 'secret identity'.
My identity is built upon my name, my heritage, my childhood background, my family, my experiences, my beliefs, my skills, my behaviours, my appearance etc. All of those are informed by my gender.
I can't imagine anyone saying anything to or about me that would in any way invalidate my identity.
Am I missing something?

That little zing of magic dust that enlivens the personalities of otherwise dull self-obsessed people?

Yes, you are missing the fact that gender identity is just a massive pr exercise designed to put a sellable gloss on the two types of male sexualities, homosexual transsexual and autogynephillia. It's a work of fiction. Not a very good one either. Read Blanchard, the sexologist that studied the men he was treating for their sexual behaviour. Identity is the post modern cover up cross dressing men have tried to sell to the world, unsuccessfully.

the way you think about yourself, the way you are viewed by the world

These are two separate things. They may affect each other, but they may also totally conflict with each other.

Ive never woken up and thought I am A WOMAN. I am just me. I like a lot of typically male things and some typically female things. My identity is based on what I'm good at, how my friends perceive me and what I believe is right and wrong. My interests and appearance change regularly.

I've wondered about this too. For me, it's the 'invalidating' part where the logic doesn't hold.

I'm a woman. If someone mistakes me for a man, or even outright tells me that they don't think I'm a woman, that doesn't 'invalidate' me. I might think that they've made a mistake, or that they're joking, or trying to insult me. That's all.

Something less clear-cut and objective - I'm also working class. I've had people tell me I'm not - usually because they disagree with my politics, or because they question whether it's possible to have the educational background I have and remain working class. They're entitled to their perception of me, even if I disagree with it. I know there are different theories of class. It doesn't change my self-perception, and it doesn't upset me that some people don't see me exactly as I see myself.

Needing someone else's approval, or their acquiescence, to make you feel 'valid' suggests to me that you're insecure in that particular belief about yourself. That you need external confirmation of it to make it 'true' for you. It doesn't seem psychologically healthy, and probably means you're being dishonest with yourself somehow.

I don't feel that my identity is related to gender at all really. If I think about the question, 'Who am I?' I would answer in terms of my name, my job, my family, my personality. 'Woman' would be a long way down the list. Being female has obviously impacted on my life and it has therefore helped to shape 'who I am' because of experiences that are uniquely female. But I see my sex as simply a fact about me, like the fact that I need to wear glasses because I am short sighted. I don't feel that being a 'glasses wearer' is part of my identity as a unique individual.

I think it's easiest to understand how your identity can be invalidated when it happens to you.

So I admit I am a woman, as long as that is a reflection of biology only. I find it important occasionally that biology is acknowledged , which is not often to be fair , but does occur eg when a school is looking for female role models , or when I am trying to understand my socialised behaviours

Once that definition is removed, when woman means an identify or feeling not a physical thing, then I don't know how to describe myself. If woman is something above and beyond that biology , independent of that biology, I don't think I am it. I certainly couldn't be a role model for it.

Beyond biology, I have on average more in common with the men I know than the women

But what am I? Adrift in a world where being a woman means that I am fundamentally different from men in ways I don't understand ? So I am not a woman and not a man and that feels a little pushed out ina world where everyone is supposed to be one or the other. I don't belong

Miriel Yes, you have explained that really well. A person's identity is the way they see themselves. It's personal to them, and no one else can make it valid, or invalidate it.

I might see myself as caring, or shy, or any number of things, but others may not agree.

I might identify with things, but I do not identify as anything. I just am.

I have never given it any thought.

I am what I am. There is no belief about it. Nothing to identify with.

In fact, even answering "who are you", to me is a loaded question. Well what do you want to know, what I do for a living? What my hobbies are? What I think about topics x y z? How I behave? Maybe how I behave in relation to personality tests you could do (e.g. yes, I am more introvert, but that is not something I 'identify' as, just something I am).

"I can't imagine anyone saying anything to or about me that would in any way invalidate my identity."

In short, this. Because nothing about me requires others to validate it.

I think that beng a woman feels like a bigger part of my identity since I have got older: I have breast cancer, which will kill me sooner or later, so I always feel conscious of my body. I'm also part of a large community of female friends who provide the kind of friendship and support which I don't feel men could offer. My feminist politics have become more important to me also, and I largely see the world through the lens of women's oppression. I do feel like a woman.

However, not one little shred of my identity as a woman has anything to do with clothes, cosmetics, high heels, lingerie, or submitting to men.

"They're entitled to their perception of me, even if I disagree with it."

And that is the crux of it. To trans activists, you do not get a different perception of others than they have of themselves.

A friend of mine who is a Hegelian posted this to me the other day - some people might find it interesting and useful. He's not super camera-friendly and can be opaque though, so beware!

Same Carousel.

Midge of course you belong. Everyone belongs. I don't think your identity is just being a man or a woman. There are many ways to belong that have nothing to do with biology. I am sure you must have many in your life.

Same MrsK. I meant all those things I list are informed by my sex but that alone does not define me. And I am not in any sense what one might stereotype as 'feminine'.

Exactly Miriel!

I can't imagine having a gender identity. I am a woman, have always been :) and am still sometimes surprised to be seen as one.
e.g.

1. Visiting another culture, suddenly realised I was only woman at a bar as it was only men do that in their culture
2. Realised recently I'd always assumed that if I got a role in a play or musical it would be one of the male roles, got a kind of shock when I realised I'd be expected to take one of the female roles!

Luckily this (really) will never happen, as I can't sing or dance. :)

I will have a look Goose. Thanks.

Sorry for the multiple posts. I'm not finding the app on my iPad too easy!

Really interesting question Z0rr0. I'm going to muddle through my feeling and might not completely make sense here.

I am a dark skinned mixed race woman born to a white teenager in the 70s in a predominantly white working class area and so from a young age it felt like I had my 'identity' or people projecting their prejudices on me from a very early age, and obviously this had a huge impact on me and led to a lot of confusion.

However, I am blessed with a strong no nonsense mum and grandmother who drummed into the stark fact that I am who I am and if I don't believe in myself and love myself then no one else will either.

Its a hard but true fact, if you depend on others to "validate your identity" then you'll never be happy.

Interesting thread! I don’t identify as anything and have never really thought about my identity, I’m just me, in my body thinking my thoughts. My physical body has a big impact on my existence - periods, having babies, fluctuating hormones, being a bit small and weak with sun burny skin. If you asked about my personality, family, interests or career I could say a lot - is that what people mean by ‘identity’. It just sounds rather introspective to me. Caveat: I totally get why if you are part of a discriminated against minority group that would be a big part of your identity.

I tend to think of our identity as ourselves as an object of thought. So it's our idea of ourselves, almost a sort of projection, an other-us.

I've seen people argue that it's a modernist phenomena of thought/being, and that it represents a kind of alienation from the self. Which might go some way to explaining why people would be so desperate to try and create an inner unity through various identifications, be it a football team or a style of music, or a career, a sports team.

Thanks DrBanner. I can see that identity for less advantaged groups could be a big issue. And yes we like to identify with others of similarity, be that race, sex or football team.
It is an interesting question and I'm grateful to people helping to shed some light on it.
I still am not sure how much someone else's beliefs or opinions would shake my own sense of myself and my identity.
Maybe that's easier because I'm old. I suspect that would have been easier when I was in my teens and 20s.

@MrGHardy

"They're entitled to their perception of me, even if I disagree with it."

And that is the crux of it. To trans activists, you do not get a different perception of others than they have of themselves.

This, exactly. 'Preferred pronouns' - how other people talk about you when you're NOT THERE - are the perfect example.

@Z0rr0 I think I would argue that how someone identifies is slightly different to their identity. - I think when someone makes a point of 'identifying' with a particular characteristic, it becomes part of their identity.

But yes, there is something deeply fragile and narcissistic about 'someone doesn't see me how I want them to see me' = 'this person has invalidated my identity' which quickly becomes 'has challenged my very existence'. Despite the frequent comparisons to gay rights activism, 'this person doesn't see me as gay therefore...' was/is not really a thing.

The invalidating argument assigns a responsibility to Jo Rowling and the rest of us to lie, in order to appease people who claim to be what they are not.
No person has a responsibility to lie for another.
Never set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.