What constitutes your identity?

[Z0rr0]

The dictionary definition is 'the fact of being who or what a person or thing is'.
To expand: The definition of identity is who you are, the way you think about yourself, the way you are viewed by the world and the characteristics that define you.
[In maths an identity is 'a transformation that leaves an object unchanged'.]
Wikipedia says: Identity is the qualities, beliefs, personality, looks and/or expressions that make a person or group. One can regard the categorizing of identity as positive or as destructive. A psychological identity relates to self-image, self-esteem, and individuality.

I'm asking this because both Radcliffe and Redmayne have talked about JKR's comments 'invalidating trans identities' or having their 'identities questioned'.
Someone on here said something I thought was brilliant the other day:
Many misgender trans women, say that only women who were born female have the right to identify as female, and so on.
Since when did anyone have the right to identify as anything?
I need sex based rights regardless of my identity. If I could just identify out of being female, I wouldn't need sex based rights.

I think I would argue that how someone identifies is slightly different to their identity. I'm thinking about 'identity theft' or 'secret identity'.
My identity is built upon my name, my heritage, my childhood background, my family, my experiences, my beliefs, my skills, my behaviours, my appearance etc. All of those are informed by my gender.
I can't imagine anyone saying anything to or about me that would in any way invalidate my identity.
Am I missing something?

I feel my identity is my core personality which I was born with and was then shaped by my life experiences. My female sex has played a part in that obviously, as well as things like my skin colour, sexuality, political and religious beliefs but it is not central to it. I’m comfortable enough with the traditional appearance-based stereotypes (long hair, make up, feminine clothes) to not really stand out, but when it comes to the fundamentals of who I am, those gendered expectations are wrong more than they’re right. I feel like I have as many things in common with my dad as my mum, or with my (male) partner as my sister and nobody I know conforms to the gendered expectations 100% so I can’t imagine taking them seriously. I don’t know what “feeling like a woman” means beyond the experiences of having a female body (both physical and social). I’ve always thought the aspect of myself that has had the greatest impact on my life is being an introvert - something I have in common with both men and women that I’ve known.

I can see why someone not having the same opinion as you about who you are could be frustrating, especially when you’re younger and are maybe still a bit unsure, but part of growing up is realising that you don’t need others’ approval to be yourself. The idea that because I don’t have a gender identity it invalidates someone else’s view of themselves, and therefore erases them, is as bonkers as me saying I don’t believe in god so religious people don’t exist.

Because I am a woman people have been telling me what I am all my life. Sometimes I believed them, but mostly not.
Who we are is rarely who we tell ourselves we are. I think identity is a combination of who we admit to being and who we wish we were. Where we have been and where we hope to be going.

I think, therefore I am.

I think there is a lot in the observations that your identity matters most, or even at all, only when you are not secure in it, which therefore depends a lot on how you react to external forces , and what those forces are

So if your identity is ignored , overridden or belittled by society , be that a trans identity or any other kind of gender none conformant identity , or a racial identity, it could make you feel very insecure in yourself , which will affect how you behave, a tendency to seek out others like yourself etc and to ignore the opinions of others who have in effect ignored parts of you , and so divisions grow

If you are utterly comfortable in your identity such that you don't even notice it, it's kind of like being white in a white society, you don't really notice that either

If identity is “who I am” then it contains my age, my sex, my race, my nationality and my background. But also my personality- my interests, the things that resonate with me, how I present myself to the world. How I feel about myself.

But others will perceive me in a different way to how I see myself and I have no control of that. So I may strongly identify with, say, honesty and loyalty but others may focus on times when I’ve been duplicitous and of that is all they know of me, will define me in a way I see as alien to myself.

That’s how I understand it but I’m not saying I am right or everyone feels the same.

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful replies. Really interesting. I can see that if society as a whole was ignoring or scorning trans men and women then they might feel invalidated in some way, but so far as I can tell society is trying to find ways to embrace them and include them, and aside from some extreme bigots, help them to live their lives safely and happily. That seems to be the evidence before me.
So I am struggling with this idea that someone else's opinions could erase them.
It feels quite narcissistic and at the same time quite fragile to need everyone's validation before I can live my life.

Also, I meant to add that someone's sexuality is very clearly part of their identity and I can see increasing numbers of angry gays and lesbians who feel very invalidated by trans ideology. Justifiably so.

Z0rr0

Also, I meant to add that someone's sexuality is very clearly part of their identity and I can see increasing numbers of angry gays and lesbians who feel very invalidated by trans ideology. Justifiably so."

Interesting

I think my identity is around the qualities I like to think I have/want to have - pragmatic, being laid back, competent at my job, practical and helpful and friendly.

Not so much about physical characteristics at all.

Are you female Tree?

The problem with trans identity is that it is clearly at odds with physical reality

As a woman I have spent years getting people to look beyond my sex to recognise my actual, provable abilities , me as me, not their clouded vision . To me my identity such as it is is based on fact. A clear understanding ( I hope!) of my true personal strengths , weaknesses, likes and dislikes . Something that people can see if they take the time. My imprint in the physical real world.

I am old and think of myself as young. I am blonde and pale-skinned when, if I'd been given a choice, I would be dark with black hair. So people are constantly invalidating my identity I suppose.

I think the crux lies in this weird affirmation therapy, where it all depends on the rest of the world being psychic and kind and going along with the game. It is a total hide onto nothing

Also, I meant to add that someone's sexuality is very clearly part of their identity and I can see increasing numbers of angry gays and lesbians who feel very invalidated by trans ideology. Justifiably so.

Here is an interesting thing though, the historical evidence suggests that sexuality as such has most often not been an important part of people's identity, they often has not really been a category for it as being a "type" of person. And a lot of our thinking is defined by the language we have.

What different societies and cultures pick out as important can vary a lot. Male/female is ubiquitous and significant in pretty much all. And some sort of sense of family group and us/them. But beyond that, a lot of the things we think of as forming identities are pretty modern. People don't always seem to have thought about these identities either, largely they took them for granted. You didn't "identify" as a member of x tribe, or as a woman, you lived as part of x tribe, and you lived as a woman, because those things are concrete. There wasn't a lot of necessity to turn that into an abstraction.

Great question.

As a teenager, as many teenagers do, I chose to dress in a way that reflected my taste in music, men (long haired hippy/rocker types) and motorbikes. So that was an identity that I wore. Also reflected feelings of being an outsider to society, hanging around with bikers & travellers who didn't seem to fit in either. Most of my best friends were men at the time.

For me lot of the biker stuff was to do with pushing back assumptions/expectations about what nice girls did. I was supposed to be a nice girl, according to my mother especially but I just carried on copying my older brother (as I had done through childhood), who could have fast motorbikes, played loud music, shag about, swear, get tattoos and drink pints. Not very original but I really didn't see why I had to live by different rules because I was female,....well until I had my son at 19. Boy oh boy did getting pregnant blow all that out of the water. Thank goodness for feminism!

I don't feel the need to dress 'like a biker' nowadays, unless I'm going out on my bike, just funny how important it was to teenage me that I wore rock t-shirts and scruffy jeans. "You MUST know that I like motorbikes and rock music!"...lol.

Identity fraud exists.
Mistaken identity exists.

Identity is simply a claim about yourself you make to others. It is worthless if it cannot be challenged.

People may make claims about their identity.
Others get to validate or invalidate them.

Woman is not a vacuum of meaning such that any man claiming it may not be challenged.

So I am struggling with this idea that someone else's opinions could erase them

I'd say the gender identity 'thing' is more about the persona or the mask ( in Jungian terms). It is the social facing 'presentation' of the self.

We can 'present' in all sorts of ways, and sometimes what we present does not actually have particularly deep roots in the self. It is fairly superficial.

I'd say that identity is not the same as presentation or persona. So, for example, we might like to present ourselves as a good, moral, up-standing sort of person, and then people are shocked to discover we have a secret life that is quite the contrary to what we present. We present as up-standing and moral, and yet are quietly engaged in subterfuge and criminality. You could 'identify' as a Christian when asked on a form, but might not be very Christian in your behaviour or practice.

Identity is what the ego forms around. it is how we fashion ourselves as unique individuals. The values we adhere to; our moral code; our fundamental views on life will all shape our choices and decisions. We identify not 'as' something but with certain qualities or views and so on.

Identifies shift and change and morph over a lifetime, as we grow, reflect upon lived experience, and come to value different things. They are not static.

Gender identities are social presentations or performances. They very much require affirmation on order to live.

in order to live

Gender identities are social presentations or performances. They very much require affirmation on order to live

And in this sense they are very much social constructs. They require 'co-operation' or they fall apart and are meaningless.

A secure or deep rooted identity does not require continual validation because it is a creation of the authentic self.

I certainly don't feel I have a 'gender identity'. I have a female body and am treated in certain ways because of it - and there are gendered expectations about how I should behave, some of which I accept and some of which I don't. Other women I've spoken to about it say they feel the same. I might almost go as far as to say that gender identity is something you only feel strongly if you have gender dysphoria?
What concerns me is that teenage girls I know think they should have an innate feeling of gender and think there is something wrong with them and that they might be transgender because they don't.

A secure and deep rooted identity that is negated by society at large can rapidly become a source of deep concern and lead to mental instability

What's wrong with me, why do I think so differently to other people , why can't they see what I see? It can lead to a period of introspection , increased self awareness, perhaps change, perhaps acceptance that many people just don't care enough to avoid stereotypes. That's healthy.

It seems it can also lead to an aggressive need to force your ideas on others.

As humans we have a deep desire to belong, to be normal

This from Midge got me thinking (sorry, can't do quotes yet!)
"So if your identity is ignored , overridden or belittled by society , be that a trans identity or any other kind of gender none conformant identity , or a racial identity, it could make you feel very insecure in yourself , which will affect how you behave, a tendency to seek out others like yourself etc and to ignore the opinions of others who have in effect ignored parts of you , and so divisions grow"

I identify as European. I didn't realise I did until it was taken away from me. As a result I acted just like that description, trying to avoid the sort of people who describe me as an over-privileged member of the metropolitan elite who is a citizen of nowhere, denying my European identity. Technically my identity is no longer European, regardless of how I identify. It's an exceptionally privileged problem to have, I know!

However, I've realised that I was turning into a bitter remoaner and that maybe I shouldn't cling so desperately to an identity that doesn't match reality and actually I should be a bit more flexible in my identity and move on. I will never completely forgive my brexiting relatives, but I don't want to be one of those who hardens into a brexiteer hater, because that confines you to a very fragile bubble having decided everyone outside it is awful. The inability to move on is a one way street to depression, just like not recognising you're no longer young or will never be a professional footballer. Maybe transitioning is a method of moving on (you move reality towards your identity), maybe it's a refusal to accept (reality can't be moved very far?) and the demands for validation are recognition of how brittle their bubbles are.

Thanks Lekker. Good Brexit analogy.

Identity is what the ego forms around.
The 'Id' - entity!
Thanks Justhad!

Really interesting discussion. Cheers all contributors.

Gender identities are social presentations or performances. They very much require affirmation on order to live.

It's relational I think, it's kind of meant to communicate something with others. And this is why I think it's in a basic way inseparable from sex - it's meant to say something to other people in society something about your sex, that it is this, and not that.

I doubt people as a whole will ever really lose interest in saying that to each other, unless we move to libido removal through drugs and growing babies in artificial wombs.