What constitutes your identity?

[Z0rr0]

The dictionary definition is 'the fact of being who or what a person or thing is'.
To expand: The definition of identity is who you are, the way you think about yourself, the way you are viewed by the world and the characteristics that define you.
[In maths an identity is 'a transformation that leaves an object unchanged'.]
Wikipedia says: Identity is the qualities, beliefs, personality, looks and/or expressions that make a person or group. One can regard the categorizing of identity as positive or as destructive. A psychological identity relates to self-image, self-esteem, and individuality.

I'm asking this because both Radcliffe and Redmayne have talked about JKR's comments 'invalidating trans identities' or having their 'identities questioned'.
Someone on here said something I thought was brilliant the other day:
Many misgender trans women, say that only women who were born female have the right to identify as female, and so on.
Since when did anyone have the right to identify as anything?
I need sex based rights regardless of my identity. If I could just identify out of being female, I wouldn't need sex based rights.

I think I would argue that how someone identifies is slightly different to their identity. I'm thinking about 'identity theft' or 'secret identity'.
My identity is built upon my name, my heritage, my childhood background, my family, my experiences, my beliefs, my skills, my behaviours, my appearance etc. All of those are informed by my gender.
I can't imagine anyone saying anything to or about me that would in any way invalidate my identity.
Am I missing something?

@justhadathought Oh I completely agree with you. I was just trying to limit sharing that opinion on a thread about identity rather than about trans' rights. I sympathise with their limitation but don't agree the pain it causes is a reason for eroding women's rights and the pain that would cause them.
As I said, there are painful realities and I think women in particular know this. I fantasise about enjoying a life with the feeling of personal safety most men do.

I’m not talking about people saying trans women are real women, I’m talking about trans people being told there’s essentially no such thing as being transgender and that they’re perverse and mentally ill

it's not so much that people are saying that it is a mental illness, so much as an adaptational difficulty, for whatever reason.

The thing is that people who " identify as trans" these days are numerous and various....and contain all sorts . But let's be honest some AGP males certainly have a hint of mental health/fixation issues.

Elsie - why do you say that you ‘identify as a lesbian’ rather than ‘I am a lesbian’. Not trying to criticise or anything, just interested. When I hear ‘identify as’ it makes me think that the person isn’t really that thing, but wants to be.

Thanks @barbie it has been a really interesting discussion.
You brought up some really interesting and valid points. You're right, if people I cared about told me I was a terrible mother that would probably feel quite invalidating.
But, if someone I didn't know shared opinions about 50 year old women who are overweight and live in the South East being terrible mothers, then I would not feel invalidated by that. I would not care about their opinion enough - or even if it was someone I really respected and admired - I would not apply their opinions personally to me enough to feel that they were invalidating me. Why would I care what they think?
I've seen tweets tonight from some woman saying she had two 20 year olds in floods of tears over what JKR said and I just think, 'why'? She has an opinion. How does that in anyway invalidate their sense of themselves?
It's very odd.
I saw a TV show once where one of the characters said, 'people don't take power, other people give it away' and that is exactly right. If those young people feel like that it's because they are giving their validation away. Nothing JKR or anyone says has the power to take it from them.

@sittinonthefloor

It’s a big part of my identity, however, some people don’t actually believe that it exists as ridiculous as that sounds, I would usually just say I am a lesbian, not identify as a lesbian, the same way I imagine most trans people would just say “I’m trans”. I was just using an example of something that is part of my identity that people also deny exists.

I can definitely see and agree with the arguments that trans women are not the same as biological women, we cannot erase sex, it’s ridiculous imo to try to deny sex exists. However, I think when some trans people talk about their identities being invalidated that also refers to people alluding to or outright saying that trans does not exist and is just a confusion, perversion or mental illness, as people have and do say about homosexuality. These arguments when used against me feel as though people are trying to invalidate me and a part of my identity, so I imagine that’s how it feels for them and I have sympathy with that as I know what it feels like. I think it’s difficult to understand unless you’ve been on the receiving end of it and I have a lot of sympathy for them in this respect, even if I don’t subscribe to the whole trans rights movement. It’s something I struggle with tbh and why I don’t tend to participate in many trans rights discussions as I feel I fall in “neither” camp and both “sides” have some extreme views that I don’t believe in, so no matter who I’m speaking to about it I offend them!

Elsiebear90

But loads of girls and women have a massive issue with their gender. Always have.

I would imagine that most women who identify as old school, second wave, or radical feminists have come to it due to a struggle against their gender. Gender being related to the sexed body. Girls are like this and boys are like that.

Amongst radical feminists, as far as I know with the events I have been to, lesbians are are very high proportion against the general population.

Sexuality is cornerstone of gender in terms of expected role due to sex. Beautiful princess being swept off her feet by strong Prince. Heterosexuality and the roles of male/ female within that is a fundamental in all major religions and societies as far as I can see. Gay men and lesbians are still oppressed in societies across the world, often very violently. Stonewall has redefined this to same gender attraction. Not same sex attraction. To accommodate the idea that twaw (and tmam). This is a massive affront isn't it? As a lesbian how do you feel about this move by stonewall? How can you even countenance it?

Goosefoot that's all well and good but for cave people did flirting come into it? What did they do around relationships and mating? We have no idea.

Certainly historically and now all over the world, women (often girls) don't get a choice. Clothing is used for many reasons.

How does the burqa in Afghanistan under the taleban, the full coverings in Saudi, the scantly clad women around a rap star in s video, have anything to do with flirting?

I have worked office jobs my whole life more or less with men in an identikit wardrobe. The ones who fancied me still managed to flirt with me.

I also don't understand what any of this has to do with the op.

That's a really hard question! I don't think identity plays any part in what I am. I just exist, really; not in a bad way, just in a non-navel-gazing, not given to self-reflection way. I certainly don't go around all like 'I'm a woman'. I'd find it hard to identify as anything tbh, everything about me is just based on the facts.

I'm not really sure what you are getting at, SinyFootball. I'm trying to think about the nature of identity, what we mean when we say it and what it really is psychologically.

There isn't much use talking about it in relation to gender ideology or anything else if we don't even know what the heck me mean when we say it. It's difficult to talk about it as a psychological reality without some sense of how it is formed, and maybe why. Why do we have that capacity What function does it fulfil? Or maybe it has no function but is an effect of some other capacity?

Elsie - why do you say that you ‘identify as a lesbian’ rather than ‘I am a lesbian’. Not trying to criticise or anything, just interested. When I hear ‘identify as’ it makes me think that the person isn’t really that thing, but wants to be

Yes, I've been considering the phrase I identify as and I've concluded that I'd never really heard that phrase being used before the rise of contemporary transgenderism.

People might say " I identify with, though.

I think what you are doing if you Identify as something, is that you are attaching your meaning, purpose and value in life onto a distinct shape/object/role/performance/group/association and so on.

What that particular role means to you, or what you associate with it is probably more to the point. How does that particular job, role, group, performance fulfil you. How much does it match with aspects of yourself that you feel very attached to or integral.

The problem is when you firmly attach your identity onto certain & particular jobs, roles, groups and performances, you are bereft when they disappear. So if I identify as a teacher or a surgeon, then my world falls apart when I'm no longer in that job or i retire. My identity crumbles. This is one difficulty many people have when they lose their job and no longer know what to do with themselves, or what they are supposed to be doing with their life.I think what people are doing is attaching themselves to what that identity means to them, what they attribute to it.

Things can become a little odd, though when you identify as something you are clearly not. Identifying as a Jesus Christ, or as secret politburo assassin, could well be a symptom of schizophrenia.

And a white person can identify as black as much as they like, but they are still white. Their blackness is a mere performance. A put together show of certain attributes.

Likewise if a man identifies as a woman, what he is doing is trying to mimic the attributes that he associates with women, or his particular preferred image of a woman. Maybe even going so far as to surgically alter the appearance.

Problem is when you identify so strongly as something, you are very vulnerable to loss, and your identity becomes fixated on maintaining that particular form. It is even more shaky if you identify as something you are not.

I imagine most trans people would just say “I’m trans”. I was just using an example of something that is part of my identity that people also deny exists

Yes, but saying I'm trans identifies you as exactly that. Trans. Whereas saying I'm a woman or TWAW is another thing altogether.

Is it that you identify being a lesbian with certain qualities or attributes, or belonging to a group of other people with aligned views?

Same with the feminist disagreements and arguments that happen on here. People can get very attached to what being a feminist is; or what it means; to what being a feminist says about their particular world view. It is about trying to conform to a certain set of prescriptions.

Obviously if you are a lesbian you are same sex attracted, that is just how it is. That is what makes you a lesbian.

I guess that if you are part of a minority in a wider, different majority, you may well seek out others who are the same and this reaffirms your own identity or what it is about you that you feel differentiates you from the majority.

What trans activists are trying to do is force something onto you that doesn't belong to you. By saying that TWAW, therefore you must allow for the possibility of being sexually or romantically attracted to them - simply in order to validate their identify or desire. Then yes, that is an act of repression, or attempted repression.

Tbh I feel that if I as a lesbian am attracted to a post op trans woman, who has (albeit due to taking hormones and surgery) a female body I.e breasts, vagina, looks female, acts female, then that does not make me bisexual. However, I draw the line with penises and male bodies, as I genuinely don’t see how someone who is only attracted to women can be attracted to what is essentially a man in women’s clothing who believes he is a woman (that’s probably offensive, but that’s the best way I can describe it). So again I fall somewhat in the middle on this issue, as I agree you can be a lesbian and be attracted to some trans women, but I don’t agree with the extreme view that lesbians can be attracted to penises and male bodies and they’re transphobic if not. This does seem like a rather extreme and offensive view though and I don’t think it’s shared by many trans people?

I think there is a lot in the observations that your identity matters most, or even at all, only when you are not secure in it, which therefore depends a lot on how you react to external forces , and what those forces are

So if your identity is ignored , overridden or belittled by society , be that a trans identity or any other kind of gender none conformant identity , or a racial identity, it could make you feel very insecure in yourself , which will affect how you behave, a tendency to seek out others like yourself etc and to ignore the opinions of others who have in effect ignored parts of you , and so divisions grow

If you are utterly comfortable in your identity such that you don't even notice it, it's kind of like being white in a white society, you don't really notice that either

Spot on. The latter is literal white privilege. As in, never having to worry about your race because it is never an issue.

I think the internet has spawned a lot of the identity debate. Aside from physically moving to somewhere where everyone is different to you and shares similarities you don't share (be it on holiday or as an immigrant for example) many people don't need to form a racial identity because it's never an issue.
Sexually most people are straight, and have that reinforced by every single piece of media they consume, every film and every song and every greetings card. So it's not an issue.
I could go on, but you get the point. However the small differences between similar people (different football teams for example) have always been amplified by the horde mentality. One Cardiff fan and one Millwall fan who meet at a bus stop aren't likely to suddenly start fighting.
Online, all the things that might never have been an issue and offline aren't very interesting to others are suddenly grounds for building alliances, and for building echo chambers. Radicalisation happens online for the same reasons. Fetishes spread. (There's no way some of the weirder or crueller fetishes popped up in all those men's minds simultaneously, they feed off each other.)
So going back to identity politics, and having willingly spent a fair bit of time on Tumblr recently, I believe that identities are given importance by what it means socially. In the same way that teenagers try out different aesthetics and different music types but as we get older that becomes irrelevant. (At 16 someone liking the same music as you was essential for a friendship or relationship whereas twenty years later you just never give your partner the aux lead). Identifying as something online gains you a whole team of people, obviously the price you pay in some identities is a vicious purity spiral and the stress of having to remain constantly on-message.

Online though, if I wanted to build an identity around being a model boat builder who is a Capricorn and who is half Portuguese I'm sure I could find kindred spirits online, likewise if I was an aroace circumgender demigirl.
This was never possible before. We are only in the infancy of the internet really, and we haven't, as humans, become used to being able to access that amount of information, at that speed, being able to publish our innermost thoughts to an audience of billions, or to lie and cheat and troll and fight online. So many social phenomena are linked to it, if anyone remembers "Friends Reunited" and mobile phones being blamed for an increase in unfaithfulness then you'll know what I mean.
We basically never have to grow out of that teenage phase and can spend our entire lives in online bubbles of Capricorn Portuguese model boat builders, instead of having to get used to other people who think, act and look differently to us and most importantly aren't very interested in us. The developmental stage of realising navel gazing is a bit childish just doesn't happen for some people.

Tranness seems, to me, about rejecting the outward social expectations ( & ones own internalised expectations) and presentations of one's sex, and wanting to be 'treated' or 'viewed as a member of the opposite sex would be viewed, or treated, in any specific culture.

Have to say , a lot of it does seem to be sexual in nature. which is why many young lesbians are identifying as male; and why many AGP's thrill at the thought of being seen as a woman. It satiates a desire for a more objectified/passive/ sexual persona? Or something like that.....

I don't see autogynephiles as "gender non-conforming" though. They are straight men with a fetish. Fetishes are fairly common in men, the fact that this one results in crossdressing and a sexual thrill from doing so again reinforces how male the fetish itself is. From experience autogynephiles like an audience too, and the "voila!" of presenting as a woman isn't a million miles away from the thrill the flasher gets from exposing himself. Obviously for some transwomen they would love to pass and go about their lives unnoticed, but the autogynephiles are not in this group.
Lesbians transitioning for what they perceive will be an easier life is the opposite to that. If women did something as drastic as when men leave the wife and kids and splurge thousands on leopard print and wigs we'd have them sectioned.
Also having seen a lot of fellow lesbians transition, the initial support and fanbase for transmen doesn't seem to last that long. I've known women who updated their real life followers on every new chest hair that sprouted; a few wars down the line when they look like middle aged beardy men the lesbians are no longer interested and the support network is gone.
I think that's why a lot of transmen I've met have remained in permanent transition, because going stealth as a man means cutting themselves off from lesbians entirely. Ironic because it is more likely that a transman will be able to move around in the world unnoticed, so in that respect they pass more easily than transwomen tend to.

This does seem like a rather extreme and offensive view though and I don’t think it’s shared by many trans people?
I dunno, I've seen stacks and stacks of receipts suggesting otherwise.
And if you take a passing transwoman as your example, if you had sex with that person would you consider it lesbian sex? I'm talking breast implants, facial feminisation surgery and a neovagina. If you interacted sexually with that person would you consider yourself to have had sex with a woman or with a transwoman?
Having read extensively on the complications I don't think I could interact sexually with a neovagina personally, and I don't think many trans people pass but I'm interested in what you think.
Needless to say the Tumblr radfems would call you bi in that instance but they're very uncompromising, living as they do in the epicentre of genderism.

This has been such an interesting discussion. Thank you everyone who has taken the time to share their thoughts and insights.
The problem is when you firmly attach your identity onto certain & particular jobs, roles, groups and performances, you are bereft when they disappear. So if I identify as a teacher or a surgeon, then my world falls apart when I'm no longer in that job or i retire. My identity crumbles. This is one difficulty many people have when they lose their job and no longer know what to do with themselves, or what they are supposed to be doing with their life.I think what people are doing is attaching themselves to what that identity means to them, what they attribute to it.
@Justhadathought exactly this which was why I nearly put my job as part of my identity in the OP but then thought, no, it's not my job it's my skills. In the same way I said I'd be upset if someone I cared about said I was a crap mother. If someone with my skills whom I respected said my skills were poor, I might also feel damaged. But I think not as much as the mothering thing. So I guess there is a range of values or ranking I place on the things that constitute my identity.
I don't think however if someone said 'you're a crap woman' that would bother me at all. Is there a way to be a 'good woman'? If there is it's really not important to me. I'm not a representative for women, I just am a woman.
@flyingoink that's really interesting about the role of the internet. I think you're right. Thank you.
Of course the internet allows people to be lazy. If you wanted to find your tribe of Capricorn Portuguese model boat builders before the internet you'd have to actually build model boats and go out and find the ones who were Portuguese and Capricorns. On the internet anyone can say they are whatever they want without lifting a finger.
This I think is one of the things I find most galling about people saying they 'are' women when they're not. Because they're not doing and aren't prepared to do the work that comes along (wanted or otherwise) of being a woman. They don't want to be groped in crowds, talked over, dismissed, raped, catcalled, paid less, sexualised, called a whore, or made to be the carer. They just want the validation.

I don't see autogynephiles as "gender non-conforming" though. They are straight men with a fetish

I agree. what I meant was that a lot of the gender identity thing seems to come down to sex, or to one's sexuality.

I agree. what I meant was that a lot of the gender identity thing seems to come down to sex, or to one's sexuality

You don't really hear of many straight women transitioning or calling themselves 'trans', in the way that male AGP's do.

I imagine some straight women may be using non-binary or queer identities, though.

@FlyingOink I would consider it lesbian sex yes, if someone has a vagina whether that’s surgically made or not, then to me personally that’s lesbian sex. Breasts are still breasts even if they’re implants, so I don’t see why a vagina would be much different. I have to say I’ve never seen a surgically created vagina myself, so I can’t say how realistic it is or whether it would be obvious to me it’s not real and that would be a turn off though.

However, I wouldn’t consider a lesbian in a relationship with a trans woman who has fully transitioned as being bisexual, I think that’s over simplifying attraction and making sexuality too black and white personally.

This I think is one of the things I find most galling about people saying they 'are' women when they're not. Because they're not doing and aren't prepared to do the work that comes along (wanted or otherwise) of being a woman. They don't want to be groped in crowds, talked over, dismissed, raped, catcalled, paid less, sexualised, called a whore, or made to be the carer. They just want the validation.

I think they get harassed in a different way though and a lot more, I don’t for one minute think being a trans woman is easier than being a biological woman, I think it’s much harder. I used to work with a trans woman a few years ago in a retail store while I was student, who was having to live “as a woman” for two years while taking hormones, and the amount of abuse she got from literally everyone was heartbreaking, people constantly pointing out they could tell she was a man, staring at her, laughing, ridiculing, people threatening and attacking her for no reason at all, it was honestly horrendous to witness and she got next to no support from her colleagues or management as people believe she “brought it on herself” for choosing to transition.

Yes, I've been considering the phrase I identify as and I've concluded that I'd never really heard that phrase being used before the rise of contemporary transgenderism.

It's the cocked-up follow-on from a very sensible point.

You're born, you're identified by others as being a member of one sex or the other, they treat you differently because of it - sex-specific socialisation is a thing, and it's a big problem.

Where they cock up is thinking that this can be reversed simply by making a statement of their own perceived identity.

"Stop identifying me as your sexist idea of what it means to be a girl" - I'm totally on board with that.

"I identify with your sexist idea of what it means to be a girl, so you must identify me as such, even though I have boy-biology" - not so much.

The former's anti-sexist. The latter's not just sexist but also deeply controlling.

And, of course, they also cock up by locating the problem in the wrong place; it's not being identified as male or female that's the problem, it's the differing treatment that follows on from that.

As for what an identity is... No idea, it's one of those words people chuck around and assume we're all talking about exactly the same thing. If you ask me how I identify, you'd get a Venn diagram of groups I feel kinship with for one reason or another.

I identify as

Having spent the past hour pondering it, I suspect there's a word missing here.

I identify myself as a woman (when I talk about my periods or the forty bastarding hours I spent in labour); I identify myself as a feminist (when I'm posting here in favour of women's rights). In essence, I put myself forward for others to identify my group membership.

Cf the way transwomen so frequently identify themselves as members of their birth sex through their display of male socialisation.

There's a lot more to being identifiable than just making a simple statement about oneself. After all, I don't identify as an unrepentant navel-gazer, and yet.

Interesting thread, OP, I shall be blaming you for tonight's insomnia.

Trying all my life not to make my childhood abuse define me
Trying most of my life to not let sexual assault define me
Trying all my life to not let other people define me
Trying all my life to forget my abuse and and not let it define me
Trying all my life to sqaure the above

Lol. Sorry @TyroSaysMeow!

I used to work with a trans woman a few years ago in a retail store while I was student, who was having to live “as a woman” for two years while taking hormones, and the amount of abuse she got from literally everyone was heartbreaking, people constantly pointing out they could tell she was a man, staring at her, laughing, ridiculing, people threatening and attacking her for no reason at all, it was honestly horrendous to witness and she got next to no support from her colleagues or management.

That's very sad. I would never want that for anyone.
Which makes me think the vast majority of TRAs are not actually trans people. They're just men shouting at women and using trans as a cover. Because I can't believe if that was your life, you would turn it around and perpetrate it on women. If you know abuse, I can't think you would inflict it on other vulnerable people, would you?