Munroe Bergdorf makes George Floyd/Black Lives Matter all about Munroe Bergdorf

[GiantKitten]

What MB was cancelled for was not what this is all about, was it?

twitter.com/MunroeBergdorf/status/1267460238678069249?s=20

@BlueBooby

This idea that there is only one correct way to think or talk about these things, and it's self-evident, is really quite toxic.

I agree with you Goosefoot. It isn't that I think the ideas themselves are necessarily bad or wrong, it's this feeling behind them that there is always one right way to think on certain topics and that questioning it makes you a heretic.

I think you're right, there is something of the religious zealot to those who put forward these ideas and then loudly denounce anyone who disagrees.

Critical race theory (where these ideas come from) is a possible explanation but it's not the only explanation. Critical race theory is problematic in its own right because it's very difficult to critique the ideas it puts forward. Criticism, questions, non immediate acceptance is seen as racist and/or evidence that the existing system is racist and is seeking to uphold white supermacy.

Criticism, questions, non immediate acceptance is seen as racist and/or evidence that the existing system is racist and is seeking to uphold white supermacy.

That sounds horribly familiar!

The histories of black people being in the US and being in the UK are very different. That difference is being blurred more and more and I think it harms race relations in the UK.

This is a really important point. Our two cultures (US/UK) are really quite different, more than you might expect if you haven't lived in both or otherwise had a full understanding of both. It would be weird, for example, to talk about 'indigenous people of colour' here. Looking at US statements through a UK lens is likely to get distorted.

Honestly I don't have energy to talk about the violence of men any more. Yes ALL men. Because most of ya'll don't even realise or refuse to acknowledge that your existence, privilege and success as a sex is built on the backs, blood and death of women. Your entire existence is drenched in misogyny. From micro-aggressions to terrorism, you guys built the blueprint for this s.
Come see me when you realise that misogyny isn't learned, it's inherited and consciously or unconsciously passed down through privilege. Once men begin to admit that their sex is the most violent and oppressive force of nature on Earth… then we can talk. Until then stay acting shocked about how the world continues to stay f at the hands of your ancestors and your heads that remain buried in the sand with hands over your ears.

Here is the thing. I think a lot of people would have a serious problem with a statement like this, a lot of women would. I think L'Oreal would and might sever ties with a model who said this publicly, though men are not their customer base to the same extent.

And I also think that the statement as a whole is more justifiable in terms of sex than race, because sex at the least is a biological and genetic fact. You can make a good materialist argument that social differences in the treatment of men and women stem from their physical differences.

There is a huge honking difference between biological essentialism about sex and biological essentialism about race.

@TyroSaysMeow

Criticism, questions, non immediate acceptance is seen as racist and/or evidence that the existing system is racist and is seeking to uphold white supermacy.

That sounds horribly familiar!

inorite!

And I also think that the statement as a whole is more justifiable in terms of sex than race, because sex at the least is a biological and genetic fact.

So is skin colour.

But then, skin colour is to race as sex is to gender. And we know damned well MB does not recognise this fact.

When you think the social construct is innate (which in a glorious Freudian slip I accidentally mistyped as inane) and use this "fact" as a basic premise in all your thinkings, it's all going to come unstuck in very short order.

Critical race theory (where these ideas come from) is a possible explanation but it's not the only explanation. Critical race theory is problematic in its own right because it's very difficult to critique the ideas it puts forward. Criticism, questions, non immediate acceptance is seen as racist and/or evidence that the existing system is racist and is seeking to uphold white supermacy.

Yes, exactly. And MB's comment, as are many going around right now, is total CRT.

I'm finding it very disturbing going through my FB feed at the moment. Person after person is using these same phrases, recommending the same books, talking about the same ideas, and in every one the implication is that if this isn't obvious to you, you are part of the problem. They say things like "this is uncomfortable reading but you have to be willing to do the emotional work to be an ally".

The phrase "educate yourself" comes up again and again.

I am wondering, how have these people, the majority white, fairly well educated, liberal, coming up with these names and titles? Have they actually read all these books? There is a whole group of conservative black American writers who talk about police violence, I am not seeing them being posted about. There is a whole group of leftist black American writers, I am not seeing them being posted about.

These groups not only have varied thoughts about police violence, different sets of facts they think are important, they have varied thoughts about the origins of racism, what to do about it. Why isn't that an important conversation? It's not like CRT seems to be working out so well in terms of improving the position of non-whites, or improving race relations.

But you really don't dare say any of this to anyone, much less try and actually discuss the issues, the numbers or statistics, because immediately you are a racist if you do.

It's not really that odd in the end that MB believes in CRT and in gender theory. They are cooked up in the very same pot.

So is skin colour.

But then, skin colour is to race as sex is to gender. And we know damned well MB does not recognise this fact.

Well race has not always been predicated on skin colour, and it's not always now, either. It has some relation to ethnicity which is a real if difficult to pin down thing. But race, the boundaries it draws, are basically human-made. In the American context race as meaning black and white rather than being understood in nationalistic terms was created to establish a class system. So it's roots are economic.

I don't often agree with Munroe, but on this I do. Its a weird feeling tbh. I came in here ready to be pissed off, but found myself nodding along with her.

The capacity to go about your business without being shot by police etc is not a privilege. It is everyone's right.

I've always hated this use of the word "privilege". To me, "privilege" suggests something extra and unearned. Also, telling someone they're "privileged" can put them on the defensive, especially if they've had a lot of hards knocks in their lives (and saying "your life would be even harder if you were black", while probably true, is not helpful).

Talking in terms of "rights" is much more honest and less easy to argue against. Not being shot by police isn't a "privilege", it's a right that everyone deserves.

I'm finding it very disturbing going through my FB feed at the moment. Person after person is using these same phrases, recommending the same books, talking about the same ideas, and in every one the implication is that if this isn't obvious to you, you are part of the problem. They say things like "this is uncomfortable reading but you have to be willing to do the emotional work to be an ally".

I'm feeling this too. A lot of doubleplusgood talk from people who are mostly white and mostly live in Europe.

It's trivializing the issue, IMHO. I would rather hear from those it actually effects (yes, including MB). I would rather hear some practical solutions about making the police more accountable and improving the condition of black people in America and elsewhere.

I've always liked John Scalzi's computer game analogy for what privilege means:
whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

For me, personally, I always think of it like this - I will never have my job application float to the bottom of the pile because I have an obviously ethnic minority name. People in positions of authority over me will never look at my skin colour and immediately attach a whole range of unwarranted personality traits to me ("the aggressive black woman", "the sassy black woman", "the unreliable black woman"). Instead, they'll see me as a blank slate and wait till I speak and act before deciding what sort of person I am. I don't have to worry about my son hanging out at the skate park and being harrassed by police, repeatedly and systematically.

Sure some of these things may occasionally happen to me by accident (job application reminding someone her school bully was called Cara and dumping my application because it makes her uncomfortable, someone deciding I've got a bitchy resting face so am likely to have a bad attitude, police deciding this gang of teens on this particular night may well have been up to no good). But it won't happen repeatedly and systematically.*

"Privilege" has unfortunately come to set a lot of people's hackles up (not least because "straight white male" for instance may encompass some teenage boy on a sink estate in the NE with three generations of joblessness behind him and a failing comprehensive school on offer to him that no-one has the money or political will to fix). For this reason, it's a lousy choice of word. But the phenomenon it describes - that some groups of people systematically and routinely have it better than others - is a real one.

*Unless I'm in an industry which still has entrenched, systemic sexism - which is one reason why I have great sympathy with the concept the word "privilege" is meant to describe, because like all women of my age, I did have to battle my way through similar on account of my sex.

I would rather hear some practical solutions about making the police more accountable and improving the condition of black people in America and elsewhere.

One of the characteristics of Critical Race Theory is that it doesn't really talk about practical solutions or concretely improving people's conditions.

It has some relation to ethnicity which is a real if difficult to pin down thing.

Not helped by the fact that attempts to pin it down open one up to accusations of being racist.

It's yet another of those things that drives me mad about the dominance of the American narrative. I'm supposed to not notice that there are slight differences amongst features that give clues to the general geographic location one's recent ancestors lived in, because white Americans think that's racist.

Those same white Americans are the ones who tell us off for cultural imperialism etc when we care about the injustices faced by our sisters of colour in other cultures, and accuse us of trying to impose our colonial narratives on other cultures.

There's some very hypocritical projection going on there, and I fail to see why I should be expected to champion the rights of my English-speaking black sisters while turning a blind eye to the systemic denial of women's rights when the recipients don't speak my language.

Sorry, I may be ranting slightly.

The phrase "educate yourself" comes up again and again.

Mm. I'd quite like to do this. But when it comes to book recommendations I'd like to know a bit more about any given author than simply their skin colour. Because I'm going in blind here, and it strikes me as a bloody stupid (and racist) idea to assume all black political writers hang around the same point of the political spectrum, and I don't want to fall into the trap of thinking "this author's black so their interpretation is the obviously correct one".

It's yet another of those things that drives me mad about the dominance of the American narrative. I'm supposed to not notice that there are slight differences amongst features that give clues to the general geographic location one's recent ancestors lived in, because white Americans think that's racist.

That's interesting because my experience is the opposite. I've spent time in a lefty US city and some Americans I met in a semi- professional correct were talking about exactly that and how you could e.g. tell Chinese from Japanese origin people. All very politely but it definitely shocked my English sensibilities to hear it. This was a few years ago but talking "matter of fact-ly" about race was extremely common. Even in schoolkids.

... so I have since assumed it is that kind of thing ppl are fighting against - whether it has its place or not.

*context, not 'correct'

how you could e.g. tell Chinese from Japanese origin people.

I'm hoping this was in a context of trying to get better at not offending anyone by assuming everyone from that area of the world is Chinese.

Do they also talk about how to distinguish between different "white" groups? I've only experienced Americans online - and only really communicated with 'liberal' ones at that - but they've shown a distinct unwillingness to accept that white Europeans aren't all one homogeneous mass.

I'm feeling this too. A lot of doubleplusgood talk from people who are mostly white and mostly live in Europe

Quite. BLM was created as a response to the specific context of the US' racial history and its policing. There is zero equivalence between the UK and the US in the context of police. At the same time as George Floyd was being killed in the US, there was yet another massacre in Burkina Faso. Scores of poor people have died in Burkina Faso during a sequence of attacks in 2020 in an ongoing insurgency. Why are people in the UK focusing on the former and ignoring the latter? Meanwhile, there are Brits on this forum actually defending the violent looters who are smashing up Manhattan and chucking petrol bombs at cops. Many of these are white Anfifa thugs. A black retired police captain has been killed trying to defend his buddy's store against looters. Yet white Brits on Mumsnet are defending behaviour which is destroying black property and businesses. Obama correctly described looters as thugs and criminals back in 2015. Antifa's involvement in this will increase support for Trump. There is a simplistic, Manichean narrative in which 'racism' is limited to the West and the sectarian, racist realities for millions in the world beyond the West are completely ignored. I don't know what the intention is of some of these abusive, inflammatory posts, but it sure as hell isn't to educate anyone about racism.

Meanwhile, there are Brits on this forum actuallydefendingthe violent looters who are smashing up Manhattan and chucking petrol bombs at cops. Many of these are white Anfifa thugs

There is a thread in AIBU where someone was going on about how awful it was to be opposed to Antifa because it's anti- fascist organisation and how can anyone oppose that? "Antifa" is apparently no different from what her grandfather was fighting for in WWII. There was no point in getting involved.

I'm hoping this was in a context of trying to get better at not offending anyone by assuming everyone from that area of the world is Chinese.

Nope, just general making chit chat as they passed through various areas of town. "Online" America may be very vocal, er, online, but I didn't find it was representative of real life. Much like anywhere!

It's kind of like how many Americans will never get our concept of class and how pervasive it is. Obviously we have racism here, massively, and there will be lots of common factors, but culturally it has a great many differences to an American experience.

On the other hand, that's just my single experience as a non-BAME person!

There was no point in getting involved

Dido, I think many people come to the same conclusion. Because if you challenge any of this, there is just a torrent of abuse. Antifa may well be instrumental in getting Trump reelected.

I can't abide MB but I agree with her on this issue. The backlash is just the race equivalent of 'not all men'

Sorry only read the first page. The discussion seems to have moved on!

@CaraDune

I've always liked John Scalzi's computer game analogy for what privilege means: whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

For me, personally, I always think of it like this - I will never have my job application float to the bottom of the pile because I have an obviously ethnic minority name. People in positions of authority over me will never look at my skin colour and immediately attach a whole range of unwarranted personality traits to me ("the aggressive black woman", "the sassy black woman", "the unreliable black woman"). Instead, they'll see me as a blank slate and wait till I speak and act before deciding what sort of person I am. I don't have to worry about my son hanging out at the skate park and being harrassed by police, repeatedly and systematically.

Sure some of these things may occasionally happen to me by accident (job application reminding someone her school bully was called Cara and dumping my application because it makes her uncomfortable, someone deciding I've got a bitchy resting face so am likely to have a bad attitude, police deciding this gang of teens on this particular night may well have been up to no good). But it won't happen repeatedly and systematically.*

"Privilege" has unfortunately come to set a lot of people's hackles up (not least because "straight white male" for instance may encompass some teenage boy on a sink estate in the NE with three generations of joblessness behind him and a failing comprehensive school on offer to him that no-one has the money or political will to fix). For this reason, it's a lousy choice of word. But the phenomenon it describes - that some groups of people systematically and routinely have it better than others - is a real one.

*Unless I'm in an industry which still has entrenched, systemic sexism - which is one reason why I have great sympathy with the concept the word "privilege" is meant to describe, because like all women of my age, I did have to battle my way through similar on account of my sex.

This is good - thanks for sharing Cara.