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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Munroe Bergdorf makes George Floyd/Black Lives Matter all about Munroe Bergdorf

288 replies

GiantKitten · 02/06/2020 12:05

What MB was cancelled for was not what this is all about, was it?

twitter.com/MunroeBergdorf/status/1267460238678069249?s=20

OP posts:
Maria1921 · 03/06/2020 23:41

Bergdorf tweeted that the suffragettes in the UK specifically decreed that black women were specifically excluded in their fight for the vote.

This was proved to be 100% untrue.

MB has never apologised for this terrible slur on our heroines.

Therefore I have zero sympathy for MB.

Lordfrontpaw · 03/06/2020 23:48

MB has insulted a whole load of people. Why on earth would any brand want to be aligned with them? Don’t forget they were booked as keynote speaker at a woman’s film event at the BFI and women’s were shamed for complaining.

creativecringe · 03/06/2020 23:50

She had point. We argued bout this years ago here and she was right then and now. Loreal has no right to claim they suport black people

Goosefoot · 04/06/2020 00:04

She had point. We argued bout this years ago here and she was right then and now. Loreal has no right to claim they suport black people

So, I've asked this twice already, but no one has really given me an answer. Maybe it wasn't a clear question.

And I will say straight out that I don't think corporations are really caring about social issues. It's business for them. Mind you, they are operating in a social climate that demands they make these statements.

But how is it hypocritical on the one hand to say the support BLM, and on the other to not support MB's statements that all white people are racist in their DNA?

Arguably some might say that BLM also takes that view of racial essentialism, but I do not think most people believe that. They think that BLM is about racism and police brutality. Isn't it possible to be against racism and police brutality, and also against the kind of racial essentialism in MBs tweet that resulted in being fired?

TyroSaysMeow · 04/06/2020 00:28

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

7Days · 04/06/2020 00:30

I would think so Goosefoot

But this discussion is - generally- suffering from a sort of category error. Many people feel a visceral emotional response because it affects them directly, others take a cooler more rational view because they are detached from it. Both are in agreement and both approaches are necessary im in the longer term. But don't necessarily see eye to eye in the heat of the moment. It's a pity because its directing the energy in the wrong direction. You need both spark and ember to burn something down. Its not a days work

BatShite · 04/06/2020 01:00

MB tells white people that they cannot possibly understand what life is like as a black person, and they are right. And yet that is exactly what Munroe has done to women. And not only has Munroe done it to women, Munroe has then preached to women that they are the ones doing womaning and feminism wrong

Quite. Astounding how Munroe doesn't seem to see this. Or care.

"White Privilige" is offensive American bollocks. An absence of social disadvantage is not a privilige, it is everyone's right

Bullshit IMO. White privilege is as much of a 'thing' as male privilege is.

I do think the 'ALL' was unnecessary really. As someone pointed out, its kind of the equivalant of saying 'all men have male privilege, therefor every man is a violent fucker' or something.

However, with that said, shes angry. People don't think too much in anger and I kind of doubt she really thinks its ALL..a fair amount depressingly, but not all.

Loreal have proper took the piss.

BatShite · 04/06/2020 01:04

Hmm disappearing post. If the privilige comment that I just quoted was the deleted post..and mine needs nuked because of it, please HQ can you just edit it out and leave the rest of my post?

I should have clicked on, when I did not remember seeing anyone say the quote, and quoted it from someone elses quote instead!

TyroSaysMeow · 04/06/2020 01:37

White privilege is as much of a 'thing' as male privilege is.

There's a really obvious parallel there too - in the US black people aren't afforded the privilege of being able to live their lives in the reasonable expectation of not being harassed and attacked by white people; swap black for female and white for male and you've got the reality of being female in the West.

Where does the idea that we're not allowed to draw attention to the parallels come from?

BatShite · 04/06/2020 02:04

Where does the idea that we're not allowed to draw attention to the parallels come from?

Not sure tbh.

www.lipstickalley.com/threads/sexism-and-racism-are-identical-here%E2%80%99s-why.3569338/

Came across this thread earlier. Which says it all.

Lipstickalley is a space for (primarily, if not exclusively) black women to talk. For anyone who doesn't know. Its been an interesting read today, I have to say. I have learnt a fair bit today just from there.

NonnyMouse1337 · 04/06/2020 06:30

@Goosefoot

Would you be able to recommend some of them please, Goosefoot? smile I'd be interested in reading some blogs or articles that are not from the Critical Race Theory angle.

Cornel West is kind of interesting - in some ways he agrees with the CRT approach, but he seems to put its roots in modern terms in a different place. His background is marxist/Christian, I think.

Adolph Reed ad Toure Reed are both worth reading. There are tons of good articles by the former online and easily accessible. Harpers, The Progressive, would be places to check. He's probably the most significant critic of CRT on the left.

Thomas Sowell is interesting from a more conservative perspective, in many ways coming from the opposite perspective of Reed and West. Roland Fryer I think might also be considered as from the conservative side though in many ways he is very centrist - he did some studies on black interactions with the police that were not at all popular with progressives though.

Thanks a lot for those names! From my brief digging around, I can see how some of their works and critiques make very uncomfortable reading for 'progressives' and 'liberals', and it's easier to ignore them. We are exhorted to listen to black voices...... Except for the ones that don't unquestioningly promote Critical Race Theory ideology.

I'm intrigued by the sound of some of the books by Thomas Sowell.

Black Rednecks and White Liberals - www.amazon.co.uk/Black-Rednecks-White-Liberals-Autonomy/dp/1594031436?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Discrimination and Disparities - www.amazon.co.uk/Discrimination-Disparities-Thomas-Sowell/dp/1541645634?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Ahhh my reading list just gets bigger!

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 04/06/2020 10:01

The problem I have with being asked to accept that TuTu's perspective is the only acceptable one is that a. I was partially raised by Americans, who were close friends of my parents and whose kids I grew up with, but b. most of them were Hispanic first generation immigrants, other than the ones whose Mexican families ended up living in America because the border moved rather than because they moved. And the bits of America I've lived in have mostly been the bits that if a war or two had gone differently might still be part of Mexico. So here I am, another Brit living in America, but the lens I'm seeing things through is very different to hers (and my lens is going "wait, did all the Native American and Hispanic people just vanish from this analysis of race in America?"). Which doesn't mean that either of us is wrong, it just means that different life experiences lead to seeing things differently.

There is absolutely no question that America has an especially ugly history in terms of the oppression of black people, and the legacy of slavery can still be seen everywhere. In many areas the forerunners of the current police and jail system came into existence in an attempt to "control" former slaves, and when those slaves were freed it was in some ways in name only. There is also no question that the UK played a significant role in things ending up as fucked as as they have. However, the US and the UK now are very different societies and it just doesn't work to talk about structural racism in both countries as if it works in the same way. It's also impossible to have any sort of productive conversation about any of what's going on in the US now without realizing how different policing is in the two countries. I'm white, though not always read as such, and in a place where there are currently demonstrations going on, as well as some looting. In those cases where demonstration has moved more towards riot, it's been because the police are so heavy handed and so militarized that they've pushed things in that direction. In Washington DC people spotted a blackhawk flying over a demonstration. That's a military helicopter, what the hell is it doing being used against American civilians? Here the police are driving around in what look like tanks rather than police cars. I'm going out even less than I already was because of Covid19, but it's not the protestors I'm afraid of, or even the minority of people who're looting. It's the police. If you've been lucky enough never to deal with American police and are picturing British police it's almost impossible to convey how terrifying the American police can be. Right now it feels like there is an occupying army riding around in tanks ready to shoot anyone who looks at them wrong. This is not the fault of the people demonstrating, it's the kind of massive, stupid overreaction that always happens when a deeply racist society with a militarized police force finds itself facing the (entirely justifiable) anger of its black population. Having a complete imbecile in charge isn't helping.

I don't like Bergdorf and wish that they would do a bit of reflection on their own colonizing behavior towards women, but I wish that some people would take a deep thread and consider the optics of this thread a bit more carefully. GC women familiar with Bergdorf's history are not the only people reading.

(I was thinking this on the thread about Amy Cooper too but couldn't figure out how to articulate it.)

Also, not sure if people will be able to watch this in the UK, but I think it's a pretty good overview of why things have kicked off the way they have over the past few weeks and might be useful for people who've never spent any time in the US in terms of explaining how a lot of people are feeling.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 04/06/2020 10:01

(Sorry for the length of the previous post btw, feel free to skip if it's boring.)

Needmoresleep · 04/06/2020 10:26

A great post kitten.

We were shocked by the black/white divide when we made a short trip to Milwaukee a few months back. We visited two restaurants 5 blocks apart, both with good reviews. One was BBQ and all white. I think a black person, even with a British accent would have felt very uncomfortable. The other was soul food. We were the only white people there and everyone stared when we entered. Attitudes changed as soon as we spoke, and people were really welcoming.

The US is very different. Which does not mean that we don't have anything to learn.

BaronessRadishFemish · 04/06/2020 11:04

That clip does work in the UK for me Kittens and I plan to watch it tonight. Thank you for posting it and please don't ever apologise for the length of your posts. Which are always top.

Wbeezer · 04/06/2020 11:04

I am naturally rather sceptical about any kind of cultural , political, sociological theory, because theories are just that theories, not impirical scientific truths and if people are struggling to understand or accept them it is not always because those who don't get it are ignorant it's sometimes because the theory has been developed in a particular time and place and doesn't actually make as much sense in a universal context. If that's the case, no matter how often you repeat it, you will never make it stick and people will fail to "get it" regardless of how much truth it contains or how much it makes sense to a section of the population. People and populations don't fit neatly into boxes and attempts to make them fit lead to frustration.
Theories dont always overlap neatly either, as illustrated by MBs hypocrisy about sexism/feminism.
I admit I have not waded through any books about critical race theory, i probably would if I was a student, but what I have read about white supremacy and white fragility leave out too much about the class system to work in a UK context, either historically or contemporaneously.
To me it's still very much a work in progress and therefore discussion should be encouraged not disallowed.

DreadPirateLuna · 04/06/2020 11:23

Britain certainly has issues with racism, but viewing them through an American filter can be distorting. I suspect for example that while people of Asian and Afro-Carribean origin both experience racism in the UK, it's worse for Asians due to perceived religious and cultural differences.

I also think viewing racism as
intrinsic to white people (or sexism as intrinsic to men) is a defeatist attitude that doesn't allow the possibility of change.

Any recommendations for writers covering race from a specifically British or European framework?

RoyalCorgi · 04/06/2020 11:48

This is a very good article (I don't think it's already been posted) about why racism in Britain is different from racism in America. (The writer is British-Nigerian.) It doesn't say that British racism doesn't exist, simply that it's different and we need to be alert to that and not draw inaccurate comparisons:

unherd.com/2020/06/british-and-american-black-experience-are-not-the-same/

Needmoresleep · 04/06/2020 12:08

I have lived in Asia. I can say with complete confidence that racism exists in Asia. I have also observed racism amongst people from Africa, and indeed amongst Europeans: Jews, Romanies.

Racism needs to be addressed. Assuming though that it is just white and black is simplistic.

Wbeezer · 04/06/2020 12:14

Interesting article.
I actually think housing policy and the cost of housing in general affects the British experience of race relations. In expensive areas like London "white flight" just isn't possible to the same extent as in the USA, either for middle class or working class. You can't "other" people effectively if they are your next door neighbours or in your class at school or football team. In areas with cheap housing, like big Northern cities, housing can end up segregated because its easier for people to move but that situation also has different cultural drivers in the mix.

TyroSaysMeow · 04/06/2020 12:40

Deleted for quoting Pratchett? That's a first. Though I can see how those not familiar with the the canon might have misinterpreted.

But how is it hypocritical on the one hand to say the support BLM, and on the other to not support MB's statements that all white people are racist in their DNA?

It's not hypocritical.

The Left has a problem with putting oppressed minorities (except women, naturally) on a pedestal. Championing their rights is good, but if it's a minority we don't actually have much personal experience of, we have a habit of assuming every member of that group is a saint.

I would suggest that those who think L'Oreal's position as outlined here by Goose is hypocritical, are working on the assumption that in order to support BLM one must elevate everyone covered by that B and not hold them to the same standards of civilised discourse expected of everyone else.

This is in fact racist, because it presumes that the full range of human behavioural capacities are the province of white people, and that people of ethnic minorities are essentially cardboard cutouts rather than fully three-dimensional individual human beings.

Perhaps I should have found a more obvious quote from Jingo, in which Vimes comes up against this cognitive dissonance within himself.

Lordfrontpaw · 04/06/2020 12:43

@Needmoresleep

I have lived in Asia. I can say with complete confidence that racism exists in Asia. I have also observed racism amongst people from Africa, and indeed amongst Europeans: Jews, Romanies.

Racism needs to be addressed. Assuming though that it is just white and black is simplistic.

The worst I heard was from a chap from the ME - taking about someone from elsewhere in the globe ‘oh we don’t even insider them human’ closely followed by an Indian friends dad ‘oh no, muslims have never next door...’. I can’t think of many nations who don’t have some other nation/race that they look down on/consider ‘less than’ themselves.

DS (mixed origin) has had a little bit at school - by Indian and Chinese born children.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 04/06/2020 12:47

I can’t think of many nations who don’t have some other nation/race that they look down on/consider ‘less than’ themselves.

And the thing is that even under the racism is prejudice plus power definition you still end up with people who're not white being able to be racist. My best friend is Japanese and will openly admit that the Japanese right wing is virulently racist, mostly towards other Asian people, particularly Koreans. Japan colonized Korea, so it's pretty hard to argue that that's not prejudice plus power that's going on there.

sourdoughismyreligion · 04/06/2020 13:27

This is in fact racist, because it presumes that the full range of human behavioural capacities are the province of white people, and that people of ethnic minorities are essentially cardboard cutouts rather than fully three-dimensional individual human beings.

If you wanted a good argument in favour of the horseshoe theory this is it. The far right believe black people to be subhuman and lacking in the qualities present in white people, but apparently so do large sections of lefty progressives, they just phrase it differently.

NonnyMouse1337 · 04/06/2020 13:38

[quote RoyalCorgi]This is a very good article (I don't think it's already been posted) about why racism in Britain is different from racism in America. (The writer is British-Nigerian.) It doesn't say that British racism doesn't exist, simply that it's different and we need to be alert to that and not draw inaccurate comparisons:

unherd.com/2020/06/british-and-american-black-experience-are-not-the-same/[/quote]
That's a really good article. Thanks for sharing!

I have not come across Ralph Leonard before. Some of his other articles were interesting too.

unherd.com/2018/10/clr-james-rejected-posturing-identity-politics/

unherd.com/2018/12/the-best-weapon-against-hate-speech-is-free-speech/