Am I going to lose friends over the trans/TERf etc debate?

[Maria53]

I am 28 and I feel the vast majority of my peers disagree with me.

I believe in equal rights for everyone. However I have become increasingly concerned about the threat of single sex spaces being taken away. The vast majority of my friends shrug their shoulders and say 'what's the big deal?' and I am incredulous.

One of my best friends of over a decade was banned from Twitter for using the word 'Terf' - we then got into a debate where we clearly disagreed. So I have never posted about it again since to avoid arguing with her and we have remained good friends.

Tonight another friend posted against JK Rowling and I disagreed with her because I am tired of staying silent. Well no sooner had I done this my close friend jumped in to disagree with me as well. Both said I am in the wrong.

I now feel sad because I know they are judging me but I stand by my convictions. Am I going to have to accept I may lose friends over our polarised opinions? Has anyone experienced this?

I personally haven't lost friends over this because my friends are intelligent enough to know that people are entitled to have different opinions. It depends if your friends are members of a cult and think that everybody has to think the same or whether they believe in freedom of thought and belief.

To be honest if your friends are so shallow that they would fall out with you over this then they are not proper friends in the first place . Friends accept you for what you are they don't try to change you.

It’s a hard one. I’m willing to lose friends over it if they don’t allow me to have a differing opinion, but I don’t want to!

I have stopped talking about it completely because this friend means so much to me and I dont want to argue. But I wish she wouldnt jump on me on the rare occasion that I do discuss it with someone else or have a different opinion. This always happens online. In person we jokingly avoid the subject but I worry we could get into a more heated debate in person.

I bowed out of the conversation and they called JK nasty words and said she is 'wrong' which basically means I am wrong too. They silenced me instantly because I just see the debate getting uglier and uglier and I dont want to fall out with people, but being able to voice my principles are important to me too.

Have you tried talking to a Trans woman/man to see things from their point of view? The ones I know are just nice normal people living their lives.

When you are older you will realise that the only friends worth having are those who accept you for what you are. Fortunately I'm a lot older than you and all my friends are well tried and tested. We may have different opinions about things but we certainly wouldn't fall out with each other because of those opinions. Although women my age tend to be of the gender critical variety as they haven't been brainwashed in schools. I feel so glad that I grew up when I did.

FalseImage all the decent transgender people who I see on Twitter are fully supportive of JK Rowling. They understand that people can't actually change sex and they are only presenting as the opposite gender. They are the sensible transgender people who are worth listening to.

I’ve totally avoided mentioning it with one friend who I just know will disagree with me. I feel a bit craven, but I don’t want to lose that friendship. It doesn’t feel a sustainable way to deal with it, tbh.

I feel like an alien for feeling the way I do and wonder why my opinion seems so different to those of a similar age. The women I personally know who are 100% happy to have all gender neutral spaces have grown up in a kind of bubble in my opinion. They have never been in actual danger from a man ever.

We have been friends for 11 years now so I'm hoping it will continue. But if she thinks I'm a 'terf' it seems like a death knell because surely she would feel fundamental disrespect towards me.

@FalseImage

Have you tried talking to a Trans woman/man to see things from their point of view? The ones I know are just nice normal people living their lives.

Why do you do this? Assume no-one here has ever spoken to a trans person ?

Depends on how strongly your friends feel about it. If I found out that my friend was homophobic/ racist then I probably would drop them or at least cut back on contact. If your friends see this as being similar then it's very possible, yes.

@Campervan69 Transgender people know they can't change their sex, what they do is have surgeries, take hormones and have other minor cosmetic procedures done. Under UK law they can have their sex recognised as the one they identify with and be issued with a replacement birth certificate. Why anyone would not just respect that is quite odd. Transgender people are not dangerous bogy people, they're just normal people going about their business.

@StrangeLookingParasite I was talking to Maria53, it sounds like maybe she hadn't spoken to any transgender people. Rather than talking about them, talking to them would be better to get an understanding of the points made.

My friend feels strongly about it and I feel strongly about it being insinuated I am a terf purely because I believe in retaining single sex spaces. These spaces are enshrined in law for a reason.

She has said tonight I should listen fo what trans people are saying about JK but what has JK said that is transphobic? Plenty of trans people also support her

I feel I know the difference because I recently unfollowed a transphobe who clearly feels genuine antagonism towards trans people.

Has your friend said what it is she feels that JK has said that's so wrong?

@Maria53 Single Sex Spaces are not going to disappear, it's perfectly legal to have separate Male/Female facilities. The fact that the law allows transgender people to use the facility that matches with their gender identity, i.e. trans woman use the ladies' toilets, trans men use the men's toilets, won't have any affect on anyone else using them. If you're fearful of men getting into female spaces that's a different issue completely. Transgender women and men are clunky the same thing.

*clearly not the same thing...

My friend's son is trans, ive known him since he was 3 months old, and I've worked with many others - girls transitioning to boys, boys transitioning to girls, some from when they first started to. Most of those I've spoken to are totally realistic. They want to live "as" the other gender or at least explore it. They know they have the biology of the gender they wish to transition from. Many are confused about which toilet facilities to use- they feel uncomfortable. Some only partly transition.
Sadly there are dodgy characters everywhere and yes, this is another way some might explore to access women. But I've not met any like that yet.
I think its such a delicate issue that its probably best to avoid commenting unless you add all perspectives and possibilities.

A lot of people don't really have any deep convictions based on principles, ethics etc. They look at what is the popular / fashionable standpoint among friends and celebrities and adopt that as their stance, at least publicly. It's not necessarily a conscious decision.
It's pragmatic on a certain level as no one can spend time researching every issue to find the 'appropriate' viewpoint. It's easier to parrot what you think might be the 'right' one to avoid unpleasant arguments or being ostracized by peers.

Superficially, the trans issue appears to be an easy goal. Just parrot phrases you read on social media and you can feel smug that you're on the 'right side of history' while condemning anyone who disagrees. It's so easy being a 'good' person isn't it?

In reality, trying to uphold genuine principles is pretty tough. Examining your conscience, thinking deeply about something and trying to do the right thing can sometimes put you at odds with the prevailing trends. Not many people experience what I would term 'a crisis of conscience'. It's when you intially believe or support something wholeheartedly, but over time find that it actually conflicts with another deeply held principle / ethical value, and then you find yourself at a crossroad - you have to choose one - what will it be? What if you're wrong? What if you're a 'bad' person? You know it doesn't seem 'right' but you can still doubt yourself at times.

Many gender critical people initially started off very supportive of trans ideology as they didn't give it much thought and simply followed the route of supporting everything related to an 'oppressed' minority. However, over time they might have realised the deep conflicts and doubts. Seeing the impact on women and children, the logical and scientific inconsistencies in trans ideology, the misogyny expressed by TRAs etc.. would have caused an ethical quandry. It's easy to 'act' good, but much harder to 'be' good, especially if doing the 'right' thing isn't popular.

Loss of friendships is to be expected, though not inevitable. Whether it happens or not depends on how mature your friends are in realising that people can disagree on issues, even contentious ones.
Sometimes for want of a quiet life, people might prefer to avoid discussions altogether on the topic, especially with colleagues. Everyone's circumstances are different.
If you can agree to disagree, then it might be worth salvaging the friendship, otherwise it's probably time to look for new friends.

You’re right Maria that not all transgendered and transsexual people have the same views about JK Rowling, in the same way that not all women and men have the same views about her.
You might lose friends over your views. Are they friendships worth holding onto?

The friendship I am talking about is very important to me. We were once part of a close friend group and we are the last one standing. We go on holiday together quite often and had a trip planned last weekend. I am a bit worried about spending time with her now though as she has developed very strong views in recent years. I believe she is worth holding on to and while I admire her principles I feel she often sees things as black and white only.

Great post @NonnyMouse1337. Very insightful and given me some things to think about.

Separately - I am actually part of a hobby group and recently a person there who identifies as non binary said to us "I am not a woman". She has a boyfriend who she sleeps with and has all the appearances of a woman. Our scientist friend awkwardly challenged her and then everyone felt uneasy very quickly. In a situation like this is I genuinely do feel like 'what do you mean you're not a woman?'. I find it confusing.

The fact that the law allows transgender people to use the facility that matches with their gender identity, i.e. trans woman use the ladies' toilets, trans men use the men's toilets, won't have any affect on anyone else using them.

That's not for you to decide for others. The law does understand that sometimes women need male free spaces. They can legally be excluded from women's spaces. Also your understanding of what constitutes "transgender" is outdated. They don't have to do anything at all. No surgeries, no hormones. Just "I am a woman because I say so".

If you're fearful of men getting into female spaces that's a different issue completely.

No it isn't. What's the difference, to me?

The friendship I am talking about is very important to me.

Hopefully your friend views her friendship with you in a similar manner. You can tactfully disagree with her on issues, but continue to cherish the friendship. It's up to her to do the same.

I (mildly) disagreed with a friend a few times who was increasingly becoming polarised in her views. Eventually she cut contact and blocked me as she seemed to get involved with very SJW type of folks and it made her thinking black and white like your friend. I would never have cut our friendship like that, and I am willing to reconnect if she ever changes her mind some day, but it was her decision to do that.

I guess all you can do is maintain your side of the friendship (unless she turns abusive or insulting). The rest is up to her.

The phenomenon of women claiming to be non-binary appears to me a way of boasting about themselves or advertising their specialness among other women. More often than not, they look like any other woman and are in a heterosexual relationship. They love to insert themselves in women's groups for hobbies etc and then declare how much they aren't a woman and how difficult it is being non-binary in a world full of awful, heteronormative, cis people. It's attention seeking behaviour ... Desperate for positive or negative reactions so they can shoehorn more monologues on how different and special and non-woman they are. I suspect if all of you ignored her attempts to denigrate women and womanhood, she will eventually get bored of hanging out in your group and move on somewhere else.

More often than not, they look like any other woman and are in a heterosexual relationship.

I follow someone in America on Instagram who fits this to a T. It is beyond baffling. She was a conservative Christian until a few years ago, then met her now-husband, who started out incredibly rough and rugged and then over time developed AGP and came out as trans (he/they) last year, but presents as a man with longer hair except when he does a camp photo shoot in a dress...

Now of course she/they is NB, proof of which is that she cut her hair shorter. And they are raising their baby NB. Yet they found out the baby's sex at the 20 week scan and announced it to everyone (riddle me that one) and have named the female child after their two grandmothers.

This woman, who is in a traditional heterosexual marriage, is obsessed with how "gay" her relationship is, and goes on and on about it, and of course gets all the affirmation in the comments. I actually find it incredibly insulting to the gay community tbh. And cringe inducing. And did I mention baffling?

@FalseImage

Have you tried talking to a Trans woman/man to see things from their point of view? The ones I know are just nice normal people living their lives.

I do not feel threatened by ‘proper’ trans people. My fear is of opportunist cross-dressers with ill intentions having access to women-only spaces.