Am I going to lose friends over the trans/TERf etc debate?

[Maria53]

I am 28 and I feel the vast majority of my peers disagree with me.

I believe in equal rights for everyone. However I have become increasingly concerned about the threat of single sex spaces being taken away. The vast majority of my friends shrug their shoulders and say 'what's the big deal?' and I am incredulous.

One of my best friends of over a decade was banned from Twitter for using the word 'Terf' - we then got into a debate where we clearly disagreed. So I have never posted about it again since to avoid arguing with her and we have remained good friends.

Tonight another friend posted against JK Rowling and I disagreed with her because I am tired of staying silent. Well no sooner had I done this my close friend jumped in to disagree with me as well. Both said I am in the wrong.

I now feel sad because I know they are judging me but I stand by my convictions. Am I going to have to accept I may lose friends over our polarised opinions? Has anyone experienced this?

False it's generally men who pose a threat to women.

It may happen, yes, as PP have said. The leverage of social ostracism for mentioning these (not so long ago completely neutral) facts about material reality is precisely why the TRA view has gained such a foot hold. The use of terms like T*RF and other pejoratives are designed to keep you compliant. You either accept the argument, such as it is, or you are fearful and silenced. TRAs have been quite open that this is their method, and it's very effective.

For me, the antidote is to really be sure of your personal integrity. I am 100% convinced that my purpose here is women and girls and their rights and protections. I wish no harm on those people who identify as Trans, and I completely support them having employment and housing rights, and all other human rights, the same as every other person.
But my focus is women and girls, and I will not be intimidated into silence about that. Therefore I am completely sure I am not a bigot. If any of my significant friends, having known me and my commitment to justice and fairness, decide to end our friendship based on this particular topic, it will be very hard, and I wouldn't enjoy it, but I will be completely at ease because i know who I am and what I believe.

Once you get to that spot, accepting and understanding that the direction of a friendship is something you can't control and that any relationship in which you have to conceal a reasonable and rational opinion because of the threat of the other person ending the relationship is not a healthy one, is very powerful.

[quote FalseImage]@Maria53 As you can see from many of the posts on here, there's quite a lot of negativity directed towards trans women. I for one will continue to support them, they pose zero threat, most of what you see here is fear-mongering. [/quote]
You are the one using the term ‘fear’ FalseImage.

There is a difference between fear and acknowledging the conflict of women’s rights and the denial of truth. You say the people you know acknowledge they can’t change sex. Wonderful. Now what about those perpetuating the myth that people can change sex and now even using the word male or female has been deemed as dehumanising.

Please stop defining this issue to the behavioura of your friends False. It is disingenuous to do so.

I fully support TW right to dress as they want, not to be fired because they are TW or refused housing in fact to enjoy the same human rights as everyone

What they don’t get to enjoy are rights designed for women

Yes, False, you are being underhand.

We are criticising a particular ideology that has caused real material harms to women (censorship, physical attacks, economic sanctions such as job loss), not people. Nobody’s stopping you from being nice to your trans friends. But the OP came here because of social ostracism as a result of perfectly reasonable opinions. The friend she has an issue with is not trans. You’re basically telling OP that her opinions cause harm and are unreasonable, hence implying that the social ostracism OP has experienced was justified.

We’ve all got lovely trans friends False. That’s not the gotcha you think it is.

And tbh I’m also concerned for their rights and wellbeing if the TRA movement gets whet it wants.

@Kit19.

Indeed - I thought Trump’s policy to expel
Transgender service men and women from the armed services was appalling. That’s about human rights.

Allowing trans identified adult males to access women’s toilets, communal changing rooms and undress next to girls, refuges, prisons etc is not a human right.

They are not the same.

[quote FalseImage]@Maria53 As you can see from many of the posts on here, there's quite a lot of negativity directed towards trans women. I for one will continue to support them, they pose zero threat, most of what you see here is fear-mongering. [/quote]
It's very blinkered of you to say transwomen pose zero threats. There's a whole raft of evidence to show the opposite. The best you can say is that the majority pose zero threats, but the threats that the minority do pose are very dangerous to women. Which is exactly the same as the threats posed by men.
Personally, I can't understand why a person of either sex, who has gender dysphoria, wouldn't want to have full surgery if they truly felt they were really in the "wrong body". And yet lots of TW don't have their penises removed.

As you can see from many of the posts on here, there's quite a lot of negativity directed towards trans women

Quote some this 'negativity' for me please, because I cannot see it.

O.P.
Stick to your views, but present them gently. Sometimes it's ok just to write "I disagree" then leave it.
Twitter and other social media are not good places to discuss these things as people are often grandstanding. Be careful when you write something, as people can selectively quote a phrase that could make you seem hateful.
I'd stick by your friend unless they do something terrible. Many of us here were supportive of TRAs at one point.

@Kit19

I fully support TW right to dress as they want, not to be fired because they are TW or refused housing in fact to enjoy the same human rights as everyone

What they don’t get to enjoy are rights designed for women

This absolutely! Everyone should have the same human rights. And trans people do.

I would avoid discussion online with friends. If you watch the triggernometry interview with Glinner he talks about how lack of tone causes major fallouts.

I think it's fine to value a friendship over a principle and avoid discussion of that topic.

Trump's stated concern was over the cost of surgery to the public purse and the continued medical costs post-op.

It must be stressed that the new definition of trans means anyone who says they are, be they dysphoric, queer, WUM or aspiring or actual abuser using the cover of saying they are trans to facilitate their abusive activity. What part of Self-ID do you not understand?

I for one will continue to support them, they pose zero threat, most of what you see here is fear-mongering

Most PEOPLE pose zero threat, but we still have laws and safeguards for the minority that do. You seem to be suggesting NO transperson posts ANY threat, which is quite frankly ridiculous, considering there is a thread full of incidents were more than a threat was posed.
You’re being wilfully naive at best, and complicit at worse

I think it's fine to value a friendship over a principle and avoid discussion of that topic.

The best approach might well be to agree to disagree. However many wokesters (and I am referring to other divisive debates such as Brexit, Scottish Independence or variants of Momentum as well as Self-ID) do not debate, they insult. So if you are pro-Brexit, you are racist, if you want to protect women's spaces you are transphobic and so on.

Having decided that it is hard to remain friends with racists or transphobes. My ex-friend described above, was clear. She could not have friends who held different political views. So the choice for the other person is either to keep silent or to walk away.

I am heartily sick of one group claiming the high moral ground. I am not necessarily right but happy to debate and review my views on the basis of new evidence, observation, or argument. I also think it is really important to fight back against the colonisation of thought and discourse by one group, who themselves are unwilling to debate, indeed unwilling to hear other views.

I don't know how FalseImage can type "they pose zero threat" with a straight face. JK is in trouble this time for quoting accurately from the account of a violent assault perpetrated by a trans person. An assault by a young, strong, testosterone-puberty-shaped body, on a 60 year old woman. The trans person was convicted.

OP, I'm sorry, that sounds hard. The only things I can think of are to continue loving your friend. It is okay to say that you're hurt that she would assume the worst about you - that you're stupid and bigoted. It is okay to say that you thought she knew you better than that.

Keep your challenges mild and questioning. You don't want to just force her into thinking the same as you - that's what the TRAs do. You want her to think for herself. So ask questions like ' but what did JK actually say?' 'Where did she copy that from?' Is it a fabrication?' 'Why has copying an accurate account made people so angry?' Etc. Make her explain herself.
Also, bring it back to common ground. Of course trans people should be safe - I just think that women and girls should be safe too. Of course most trans people are lovely, most men are too, does that mean the safety and privacy of women and girls doesn't matter? Of course we should be kind to trans people, I just think it's important to be kind to women and girls too - and the abuse sent to JK is definitely not kind.

She'll probably react defensively and angrily, but give her time. You asking these questions put loud gives her space to ask them in the privacy of her mind.
Good luck!

[quote FalseImage]@Maria53 As you can see from many of the posts on here, there's quite a lot of negativity directed towards trans women. I for one will continue to support them, they pose zero threat, most of what you see here is fear-mongering. [/quote]
Men walking into women’s spaces because they want to. Women having to box male bodies or not compete. Women locked in prison cells with male bodied rapists.
Zero threat...fear mongering...negativity...

You’re not as nice as you think you are.

OP I had a very long friendship that ended about two years ago.
For a good while I had felt like I couldn't really talk about issues with her, that she got offended at any political disagreement. The fact that I censored myself when I was with her eventually eroded our relationship, so that when we had a falling out over something fairly small, I found I was just done with her.

I think if you value your friendship then you might possibly be doing it damage in the long term by keeping quiet about your feelings. This doesn't mean that you need to talk to her about transgenderism, or that she needs to agree with you. But she has to stop attacking you when you post about it.

Maybe, if you wrote to her something like this:

• Explain that you are questioning transgenderism because it seems to you that it is not progressive - that you are afraid that it:

1. Erodes women's sex-based rights and puts vulnerable women in danger. You can point her to the prisoners' advocate, Heather Mason, and say that you think her concerns are important and that she has a right to be heard.
2. that there's a problem with affirmation-only and the informed consent model of medical care - see Carrie Callahan for info on this. Ironically the position that a lot of TRAs are pushing erodes trans people's right to responsible health care.

Explain to her that you are doing your best to figure out what is right here, and you are sincere in your views, just as she is sincere in hers. You could tell her that you hope that over your long friendship she's seen that you are a decent person who is not hateful. And just as you would not try to silence her views, she has to let you have yours. That civil disagreement is good and helpful, but name-calling isn't.

I hope whatever happens that you manage to keep your friendship.

Transwomen commit crime at the same rate as men, which is 80% of violent crime and 98% of sex crime.

Of course not all Transwomen are a threat, in the way that not all men are a threat. Women's spaces however need to exclude all types of men even men who identify as women. That's pretty much their only purpose.

You can't create a situation where women's spaces** exist but Some men are allowed in, because which men are exactly going to want to go in? The ones who don't respect boundaries. It's basically an invitation for the tiny minority of men who are a threat to women.

**Spaces not limited to loos and M&S changing rooms.

I'm only a few years older than you, @Maria53. Having children and realising how differently the sexes are treated made a difference, but not as much as coming to Mumsnet and being "radicalised" into GC ideas, as the TRAs put it.
I think women do get it as they get older and notice that "be kind" is only directed toward one group of people.

It is really insulting to this lesbian, at least. I hope they're not planning to try and socialise in lesbian circles. Basically it's just a straight relationship but they're hoping to pick up virtue points and kudos for being 'different'. It's homophobic.

I've lost friends. It does hurt but what hurts more is that women I love prioritise men's feelings over women's need for single sex spaces.

That's what hurts the most

I for one will continue to support [transwomen] they pose zero threat, most of what you see here is fear-mongering.

Wow, zero threat! To be that certain, you must know every last one of them, including the ones who don't dress up and like to be called Susan on the weekend.

[quote FalseImage]@Maria53 Single Sex Spaces are not going to disappear, it's perfectly legal to have separate Male/Female facilities. The fact that the law allows transgender people to use the facility that matches with their gender identity, i.e. trans woman use the ladies' toilets, trans men use the men's toilets, won't have any affect on anyone else using them. If you're fearful of men getting into female spaces that's a different issue completely. Transgender women and men are clunky the same thing. [/quote]
Then they aren't single SEX spaces are they? That holds true however you twist the words, unless you believe a person can change sex? (spoiler - they can't)

I know they thread will have moved on but the fact this post contradicted itself annoyed me.

they pose zero threat, most of what you see here is fear-mongering.

Well, we already know that's not true. Were you hoping that the OP did not?

@ThinEndoftheWedge

Single Sex Spaces are not going to disappear, it's perfectly legal to have separate Male/Female facilities.The fact that the law allows transgender people to use the facility that matches with their gender identity

You’ve destroyed your own argument. Using single sex facilities based on gender removes single sex facilities.

Single sex spaces are for single sex. Not gender. And yes the EA 2010 allows single sex exemptions, toilets, changing rooms, dormitories etc for the safety, privacy and dignity of women and girls. - which bit of safety, privacy and dignity for women and girls do you have an issue with??

OP, I’m sorry for your predicament, it must be hurtful. Most of my friends are GC.

Are your friends ‘being kind’ and ignoring the perspective of the girl/young women being forced to share toilets, communal changing rooms, refuges etc with trans identified adult males just on the say so of the adult males. It’s not right. We have always known this. Now we are are all being gaslighted in pretending it’s ok. I think some people just don’t see the practical consequences.

Should have read on