Am I going to lose friends over the trans/TERf etc debate?

[Maria53]

I am 28 and I feel the vast majority of my peers disagree with me.

I believe in equal rights for everyone. However I have become increasingly concerned about the threat of single sex spaces being taken away. The vast majority of my friends shrug their shoulders and say 'what's the big deal?' and I am incredulous.

One of my best friends of over a decade was banned from Twitter for using the word 'Terf' - we then got into a debate where we clearly disagreed. So I have never posted about it again since to avoid arguing with her and we have remained good friends.

Tonight another friend posted against JK Rowling and I disagreed with her because I am tired of staying silent. Well no sooner had I done this my close friend jumped in to disagree with me as well. Both said I am in the wrong.

I now feel sad because I know they are judging me but I stand by my convictions. Am I going to have to accept I may lose friends over our polarised opinions? Has anyone experienced this?

I consider myself to be very liberal, I’m gay myself so I understand what it feels like to be ridiculed and made to feel like you’re not the same as everyone else. I am pro trans rights in all areas other than self ID, I have no issue sharing a women’s area with a trans woman who has undergone GRC and is legally recognised as a woman, like Nikki Tutorials, or Nikita Dragun etc, as I do see them as more female than male, despite their biological sex (others may disagree, but this is just my take on it), but I do have an issue sharing a changing room with a man who only had to say “I’m a woman” to be let in.

I can’t see how anyone can say that’s not open to abuse. If someone is genuinely trans and has transitioned then I have no issue at all, but I don’t think it’s safe or appropriate to let any biological male in because he’s “self identified” as a woman. If that makes me a T*RF or a bigot to some then so be it, but I really don’t have anything against genuine trans people, I’m just concerned that laws and regulations are being put into place that are well meaning, but are being or may be abused by perverted men at the expense of women.

@HermioneWeasley Being women.

@FalseImage

He's not a woman, whereas women and trans women are.

Hate to be the one to piss on your chips but .... transwomen are NOT women. Consequently I don't want them in female only spaces!

@Elsiebear90 Trans women don't behave like perverted men, that's what perverted men do.

That reminds me @Elsiebear90 - this women only group I am in was recently attacked by a man saying the group is sexist. He then joked that he would simply ID as a woman to be let in to our classes future. Obviously he cannot legally do this at this stage but you get the idea.

[quote FalseImage]@Elsiebear90 Trans women don't behave like perverted men, that's what perverted men do. [/quote]
So by your reasoning Katie Dolatowski, Karen White, Davina Ayrton, Lisa Hauxwell - these men remain men despite having said "I identify as a woman," because they behave (indeed are) perverted men, very dangerous ones at that.

But other people with penises who say "I identify as a woman" are women, because they're nice.

How exactly does that work?

And how do I (prior to the event) tell the difference?

At what point does a man become a woman @FalseImage? What's the process for a human to change sex?

@Clymene The legal process is outlined in the GRA.

FalseImage Do you believe that males should compete with women if they identify as women? Do you believe that hormones magically remove testosterone puberty advantages?

@FalseImage I’m not concerned about genuine trans women, I’m concerned about perverted men pretending to be trans and using “self ID” as a way to access women’s spaces like changing rooms, and women not being able to challenge or stop them.

But that makes you every bit as much a word redacted because it's against MN talk guidelines as the rest of us, because self ID is flavour of the month these days.

I feel we are going around in circles here, going through the same old arguments. Now we’re on to circular definitions of ‘woman’ ...

OP, I wish you well with your friend but the safest option may just be to agree to disagree. I’m curious that you say you ‘still identify as a woman’ and are involved in women’s activism, hence you expect to be called ‘she’. You see, you shouldn’t have to do anything to have a material reality acknowledged. I also wonder if you expect to at some point no longer identify as a woman. Women who have no truck with ‘women’s issues’ or any kind of activism are women. Anti-feminist women are women. To ‘identify as’ is a political act and all this does is politicise every aspect of human life. I’m not sure that’s a good thing. Can we all not just ‘be’?

@Elsiebear90 I don't know how you'd stop perverted men from accessing women's spaces, however the GRA and EA in different ways both allow access by trans women. GRA vía legal recognition, EA vía discrimination protections, granted there are exceptions where applicable, but by no means are they granted automatically, that normal requires a judge to approve the exception if it goes to court. The question around perverted men is nothing to do with the above methods by genuine trans women.

@FalseImage define “women” without a circular definition

After I peaktransed I lost a bunch of younger friends because I posted a link to peaktrans.org - the page about crimes by tw on FB. I couldn't believe it and was really upset - cried for days. Then I got over it and started going to meetings and making new friends. I feel too strongly about this subject to lament the loss of handmaiden-types who won't even engage with the evidence. AFAIC they are betraying the struggles of generations of women and I'm better off without them.

@HermioneWeasley No, I'm not playing your game.

I think you are wrong about the exceptions in the EA, you don’t need a court to approve them ... spaces for women that exclude TW are lawful and the law was drafted with the differences between the sexes in mind. Do you ever wonder why transmen are specifically excluded from hereditary titles that only accrue to men? Funny old world isn’t it

@Daca If a trans woman was prevented by a service provider from using the female toilet, she would most likely sue the service provider on the grounds of discrimination, if the service provider wanted to use an exemption clause to justify their legal discrimination they would need to convince a judge that it was proportional and legitimate.

[quote FalseImage]@HermioneWeasley Being women. [/quote]
See you can't actually answer the question, can you, FalseImage? Your reasoning is entirely circular and this is absolutely typical of those who defend the nonsense of trans ideology. I know several male-born trans people who do NOT claim to be women - an increasing number are prepared to stick their heads above the parapet. These are the ones with genuine empathy for women - not the ones who are so entitled they think they have the right to adjudicate on womanhood - just as men throughout history have done. 'Women' my arse.

Maria53 I think you have seen a great example right here on this thread where a supporter of allowing transwomen into single sex spaces is very selective in their beliefs (or so it seems as they seem to ignore answering questions) about others aspects of women’s rights. Perhaps you will find your friends will find it equally hard to apply the ‘they are women’ to all aspects of women’s rights when they have to actually justify their thinking.

It truly is not just about toilets.

@FalseImage What is a 'genuine transwoman'?

No, I'm not playing your game.

Thought not. You make the bold statement that 'transwomen' are women but you're not prepared to define 'woman'. Rightio

'Women' my arse.

And my arse, too. And, I suspect, the arses of the majority of the 3.7 billion women on the planet!

Falseimage - please don’t @ me.

You use a hypothetical transwoman who might in theory sue over access to female toilets to claim that a court has to approve single-sex exemptions. A stretch.

But symptomatic of the widespread use of legal intimidation by certain activists.

I’d like to get back to the OP.