Am I going to lose friends over the trans/TERf etc debate?

[Maria53]

I am 28 and I feel the vast majority of my peers disagree with me.

I believe in equal rights for everyone. However I have become increasingly concerned about the threat of single sex spaces being taken away. The vast majority of my friends shrug their shoulders and say 'what's the big deal?' and I am incredulous.

One of my best friends of over a decade was banned from Twitter for using the word 'Terf' - we then got into a debate where we clearly disagreed. So I have never posted about it again since to avoid arguing with her and we have remained good friends.

Tonight another friend posted against JK Rowling and I disagreed with her because I am tired of staying silent. Well no sooner had I done this my close friend jumped in to disagree with me as well. Both said I am in the wrong.

I now feel sad because I know they are judging me but I stand by my convictions. Am I going to have to accept I may lose friends over our polarised opinions? Has anyone experienced this?

[quote FalseImage]@Campervan69 Transgender people know they can't change their sex, what they do is have surgeries, take hormones and have other minor cosmetic procedures done. Under UK law they can have their sex recognised as the one they identify with and be issued with a replacement birth certificate. Why anyone would not just respect that is quite odd. Transgender people are not dangerous bogy people, they're just normal people going about their business. [/quote]
Only a tiny proportion of trans people go down the route of a GRC, a double mastectomy is not a minor surgical procedure.

The problem I have is self ID, trans people will soon not have to go through any gatekeeping procedure to legally change sex. The mantra of acceptance without acceptance means that any man can declare himself a woman even if he doesn't have gender dysphoria and access female spaces.

They pose zero threat, most of what you see here is fear-mongering.

You in fact believe that all female humans should unquestioningly prioritise the happiness and freedom of choice of humans born male. They should do this even when it is against their best interests, needs, feelings, equality and wellbeing, and they should absolutely not talk about those things or any aspects of reality that may cast negative implications towards humans born male. Accusations of 'fear mongering' being one of the ways you scold and deride females who do.

Male supremacism. It's a thing. You're entitled to believe in it and support it if you like, it's a free country. Crack on. I won't be joining you though thanks, I don't believe females are born to be support humans. I won't be supporting the development of male supremacist laws either, because not a good thing.

I can only talk from my experiance, I'm lucky in the sense that most people I know don't agree with modern day trans ideology. I have even been surprised at specific people who have agreed with me as they tend to pass themselves off as 'super woke' on the surface but it seems to be a form of self preservation in today's hostile political climate but even they can see the issues that come with TRA ideplogy especially when it concerns children.

I do have one friend who frustrates me because whn we discuss this issue, she doesnt seem to get what I'm telling her. I always make it clear that Im not against Trans individuals but am opposed at the modern day Transgender movements ridiculous demands and denial of biology, but she always seems to bring it back to a couple of transgender colleges she has and how "They've never acted like that" or"Ive never seen that". It frustrates me because I know, going by our convo's over the years on this topic, she never does any further research into this issue beyond her own personal interaction with these particular colleges.

The most frustrating thing about this? She works in the psychology field and the core aspect of her job is research.

However our while our conversation on this topic can get heated, our friendship hasnt suffered because, as well as having a multitude of other topis we enjoy talking about, we can comfortably agree to disagree. Funnily enough another friend in the same friend group got really upset with me after a few times talking about this subject and kind of went off at me on our group chat but now agrees with me after seeing certain articles on how TRA's and Stonewall treat lesbians.

I adore my friend group but if any of them went down the rabbit whole of black and white thinking, or started to get all super woke on me about this issue to the ideological point of how mosy TRA's ad their 'allies' act, then I would put some distance between myself and them, maybe temporarily or if need be permanently.

I don't listen to nutty street preachers who tell me I'm a 'heathen' or that I'm going to hell for not following their religion or God, Im not going to listen to gender activists who shout out TERF at any opposition to their world view either. All of these fundamentalist people can get in the bin as far as Im concerned.

OP while you may value your friend you have to see if they value you in the same way or if they've gone down a different track. Someone that makes you feel anxious and nervous at expresing opposing views to them and joins in on a pile on of you in social media conversations may not have the same idea about the friendship that you have. I'm not saying cut them off straight away, but observe their behavior and see if you are being valued the same way you value them.

Good luck!

I've lost some casual acquaintance type pals, and sadly one who really mattered, but I have made some wonderful new friendships with GC women I've met.

@SuitedandBooted We do have a criminal justice system in the UK which is there to deal with criminals from all groups of people. Criminals entering women's spaces will include people from the "women", "trans women" and "male" groups. If you're going to exclude people based on the logic of "one committed a crime so they are all excluded", women's spaces would be completely empty.

That's not the logic by which males are excluded from women's spaces. It's a part of it.

I would not want friends who believe in gender identity ideology to the point where they want to force it on others.

Do you?

You appear not to understand why we have sex segregated spaces in the first place?

Not you, MrG

Yawn ... that old ‘women can just call the police if a transwoman behaves inappropriately in a single-sex space’ argument. Wouldn’t it be better for all to prevent these situations in the first place? Risk of offending correlates with bio sex. Karen White was jailed for life after sexually assaulting female inmates in a women’s prison. White, a convicted rapist, posed a clear risk. My sympathies are first and foremost with White’s victims but I don’t think this was a good outcome for White, either. Therapy and rehabilitation instead of unquestioning affirmation of White’s trans identity would have been a better approach IMO.

Have you ever come across the Swiss cheese model of risk management, False?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swisscheesee_model

There used to be an excellent poster around these parts who brought it to my attention. It even came up in an unrelated training the other day. Allowing some males into women's spaces removes several layers of protection and essentially make the space accessible to all males. It also has a chilling effect when women feel something is not quite right, so they don't speak out.

Probably. But often, as a woman, you have to choose between being truthful and being popular. That's my experience.

@FalseImage your name couldn't be more apt.

Agree @Daca. We shoùldn't have to put ourselves at then have to deal with the aftermath. Safeguarding and risk assessments were invented as a means of prevention. It's like saying to a child "go sit on that strange old man's lap and if he does anything untoward we'll call the police."

We do have a criminal justice system in the UK which is there to deal with criminals from all groups of people.

We also have an incredibly low successful prosecution rate for sexual assault in addition to high levels of porn issues and voyeurism with websites that cater for and actively encourage nutters to post their own recordings on....

Why would you expect women to just ‘shut up and let males in’ again? Why would you subject females to more risk in what is supposed to be a safe environment?

In a situation like this is I genuinely do feel like 'what do you mean you're not a woman?'. I find it confusing.

OP, are you genuinely confused by someone who self-identifies as non-binary also holding the belief that they're not a woman? Or are you just feigning confusion?

If it's the former, then I'd suggest doing some reading before you throw away any friendships over the issue - if someone else's statements about their own self-identity were actually confusing to me, I would worry that I perhaps don't know enough about these issues to throw away a friendship over them.

If you're merely feigning confusion to make a point, then I can see why people might get annoyed. It's disingenuous and doesn't bode well for a frank and informed discussion on such an important topic.

Have you tried talking to a Trans woman/man to see things from their point of view? The ones I know are just nice normal people living their lives.

I'm sure that they are and I can't see that anyone has suggested otherwise. However, I remain quite clear that I support the retention of single sex spaces and, as a woman, I don't want males in those spaces.

If it's the former, then I'd suggest doing some reading before you throw away any friendships over the issue - if someone else's statements about their own self-identity were actually confusing to me, I would worry that I perhaps don't know enough about these issues to throw away a friendship over them.

I'd be confused if a woman I knew said she was non-binary. I've read a lot about it. My understanding is that people say they're non-binary because they don't entirely fit with the stereotypes assigned to their sex. That's confusing to me because neither does anyone in the world. It's also confusing to me because calling yourself non-binary doesn't stop you from being whatever sex you are.

NB the righteous daughter has no children....I think that makes a difference.

Not necessarily. I have no children and am a GC woman.

This thread has really made me feel less alone, I'm so glad I posted.

@Mermoose I feel your approach is balanced and fair and I will take it on board.

No @LonginesPrime I am not feigning confusion about the true meaning of non binary and saying 'I am not a woman'. I am a woman biologically but I don't identify neatly as female or male because I see those as stereotypes that only serve to reinforce sexism etc. I am not overly girly and I have several 'Male' hobbies (although to me they are just hobbies). So am I non binary? And if not why not? I still identify with my biological sex and I am an activist for women's rights therefore I always expect to be called she and her.

The main point is that I cannot say a single thing about the trans topic without my friend jumping on me online. Why? I have admired her because she is principled for many years- we agree about a lot in terms of womens rights and gay rights. But the fact her beliefs are so black and white and I am treated like the big and wolf is a problem.

Transgender people are not dangerous bogy people, they're just normal people going about their business.

So is my Dad but I still don't want him sharing my toilets, changing rooms and other female only spaces!

@NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace He's not a woman, whereas women and trans women are.

@ThePankhurstConnection

Should have read on

Indeed... unfortunately my head plant onto the table reading the first bit was so hard it gave me concussion that I was still in WTAF mode when I typed...

No words...

@FalseImage what do women and trans women have in common that makes them all women, and they don’t have in common with any men?

@RuffleCrow Thanks, I like it too.