Do Tom Boys have female socialisation?

[DJLippy]

Does presenting as a boy in childhood effect the development of "female socialisation."

As a child I had short hair and wore boys clothes. Strangers would assume I was a boy and I was constantly mis-sexed. Without secondary sex characteristics the only way we can tell what sex a child is is via signifiers like hair and clothes.

I played rough and tumble with the lads and didnt really have any female friends until I went to secondary school. Most of my play (which helps yo inform interests and behaviours) was "as a boy" - wrestling and climbing trees and playing war.

Now obviously these are all arbitrary things and they dont have a 'gender' but as a society we ascribe meaning onto these things.

The adults and my friends knew I was really a girl so I dont know whether I was ever treated 'as a boy' but strangers would have had no idea. Also, did the constant mismatch between my gender presentation and sex 'trick' their brains into viewing me as a boy?

A significant amount of a child development comes from interacting with your peers. I never really had any close female friends until I went to secondary school. I didnt sit quietly and play 'nice'. I dont know if I ever learnt that knack. As an adult I can be quite tactless with female friends because I dont play along with the hidden code of behaviour we are all supposed to have learnt.

When I went to secondary school I had to grow out my hair and the sexes became segregated again so I could say my 'male identity' ended then. Puberty has a significant effect in the formation of female socialisation because you realise how vulnerable you are to aggressive male sexuality - even via small acts like having your bra string pulled.

Now obviously I didnt experience true 'male socialisation' but I dont think I experienced true 'female socialisation.' How much did my childhood gender incongruence effect my development as a girl and a woman? Did I manage to avoid a certain amount of my socialisation?

Interesting question. At least you can say 'when I was a boy'....
I would also have been happier whittling sticks and building tree houses. ..

In reality we all have variants of socialisation and some personalities and families protect us more? 20 years ago I would have said I was very protected, I am now realising that I was more conditioned than I’d thought..

I was a very physical child and a tomboy. I climbed trees, swam in ponds, rode my bike for miles. Wore trousers and wellies and hated dresses. I spent time with my dad mending cars and lawnmowers and stuff.

My sister on the other hand was quiet and plump and spent most of her time inside with our mum, baking and 'playing house'.

My spatial awareness has always been very good, I can drive anything, ride a motorbike and also have had some flying lessons which I took to like a duck to water. I believe this is because I was so physical when I was little and allowed to explore my physical environment.

My sister is no longer plump but she's not practical like I am, and she is still a real home bird.

I'd have been encouraged to be trans if it had been a thing in my childhood I'm sure.

Really interesting? How do present now and what’s your thoughts on activities/interests traditionally ascribed as female in our society?

I also

I think there is a tendency on here to hugely over- egg what was / is perceived as for boys or for girls. Ridiculous examples I have seen on here were that riding a bike was a boy thing (I don't think any of my female school friends didn't have a bike) and that liking music was a boy thing. Really ? I guess the boys in the school orchestra and the pipe band didn't get that memo.

And of course FWR's holy of holies- climbing trees- because only tom boys climb trees.

It's often said on here that trans rights activists have to perpetuate rigid gender roles to make sense of being trans. It often strikes me that gender critical feminists do the same but for different reasons so that they can tell themselves they weren't like other girls.

In reality we all have variants of socialisation and some personalities

Yes, my love of a pretty party dress and patent shoes doesn't seem to have had any effect on my ability to ignore "wife work"

It is interesting isn’t it. I dressed as a boy as a child and had boy best friends and did all ‘boy’ stuff. I did kickboxing and trained with the boys as I was talk and strong. When I hit puberty I got into heels and makeup but would still fight and kickbox. I was very confrontational to men who tried to touch me up and was very physically assertive. I worked nights and walked everywhere, threw out idiots - mostly men and later in more female workplaces had to curb how outspoken I was. I have always felt a bit that I am quite ‘male’ in expectations - I love confrontation, arguments, getting pissed, exams, tests, doing physical stuff and always have male mates as well as female ones. I have always felt that this says more about society’s expectations than anything else because I am a woman and we have always been capable in diverse and amazing ways.
I don’t know how men got the physical tag, that’s boys need sport that men can’t sit still to do a dull job. Women birth children often whilst caring for others - that’s as physical as it gets. Did anyone catch the news story about the 15 year old Indian girl forced by poverty into an impossible situation. She cycled 750 miles with her disabled father in the back of her bike. They travelled on the kindness of strangers and ate little. What humbling strength in every way. Women have always grafted through choice and poverty. I think it is a recent phenomenon that is trying to Reduce the definition of women and trying to see them through such a narrow consumerist gaze. I think my childhood did allow me to grow the side of me that was quite dominant, it has been enormously useful as an adult. I did avoid some of the girly expectations because school and family felt that they didn’t apply to me entirely.

I was a very physical child and a tomboy. I climbed trees, swam in ponds, rode my bike for miles

This is what I mean about "gender critical" feminists being just as keen as trans activists on clinging to gender roles. I did all of those things- I just thought I was a normal girl growing up in the countryside. Loved clothes, loved pretty dresses.

Argh help! I'm due to ovulate on CD17 but my LH has shown high from yday on the App, does this mean I'm in my fertile window? The app says I'm not until 2 days lol

Sorry wrong chat!

I love confrontation, arguments, getting pissed, exams, tests, doing physical stuff

What is this supposed to prove? This is exactly what I am referring to. An arbitrary list of things which women aren't supposed to do or like with nothing to support it other than it being a list you've made up to show you aren't like other girls.

I mean seriously- you have included "exams and tests"?

Dido, I wore clothes I could do stuff in. Today’s parents are offered fashion choices for their girls (heeled, scrappy shoes) for instance that can limit the girls ability to actual use their bodies. I could afford more expensive brands and my family was confident enough to be Seen In Public in second hand clothes.

How do I present today?

As myself. I long short hair but an undercut. I wear lots of mens shirts but also dresses and the like when I'm going "out out."

Most of my hobbies are considered 'masculine' but my career path has could be considered 'feminine'

I guess the thing about going through puberty is that you're body develops so you cant ever be seen as 'masculine', you just look like a woman dressed like a bloke...

I have quite masculine body language but that's all subconscious and I wonder to what extent that's just a reflection of a broader northern working class culture.

I dont really think about gender that much I just do what I like, but I do wonder how my "living as a boy" influenced my personality. I have terrible spatial perception I didnt seem to learn that properly but i feel like i have a confidence that most women struggle with. How much of this is just me??? I guess we will never know.

Sorry again Dido at my daughter’s mixed sex comp school the popular girls most definitely don’t do well in tests. That is the reason some parents, despite other moral objections, choose single sex schools for their daughters.
Sex stereotypes are definitely getting worse in many parts of society.

We know that in babies changing how they're dressed changes how a stranger treats them.

We also know that knowing a baby's sex changes how we treat them.

As a child I did everything you mention - plus sewing and baking, gardening, woodwork, maths and art. I did my hair, I cut my hair, I wore skirts for school (because I'm old enough it was compulsory), and trousers at home. I read the famous 5 and didn't understand why they made such a think of George - when Anne was right there, doing all the same stuff.

I think you're projecting a bit - I think you sounded like a kid, like all of us were, and those were your interests (we all climbed trees and jumped ramps on our bikes and ran through the woods building dens and bows when I was a kid).

I was very feminine as a little girl. If asked I'd have said my favourite colour was pink, and I liked dolls and princesses. I've grown up to be a woman who never wears make-up or high heels, I loathe shopping and I chose not to have children. I know other women who went in the opposite direction.

There does always seem to be some change as people grow up - they get more or less masculine or feminine. I wonder if this is because as children, we might be drawn to behaviour that we believe makes us lovable but as we grow we question this or try out other things and find they suit us better.

I was a massive tom boy - never comfortable with being female, horrified by breasts and periods and always good at boy subjects (maths / science) I am 110% lesbian and I think it just went along with this. I had an awful time coming out and I think it made me very uncomfortable with the idea of being a woman - don't know why this is but know it was the case. As I've grown up I embraced the gay scene and various stereotypes (short hair / clumpy boots) but as my career progressed and I started being more confident and met my wife I have changed a lot - I lost 4 stone, dyed my hair blond, grew it and now love wearing make up and frocks and heels and all that sort of stuff. My long term mates constantly rib me about how much I've changed. I put the whole thing down to confidence to embrace whatever look I liked and not one I thought I should have. Don't get me wrong - I still wear very boyish clothes sometimes cos I just go with whatever I fancy. Had I been born now I would have def been in the gender non-conforming/trans bucket but I can wholeheartedly say that even though I was uncomfortable with aspects of my female-ness I never thought I should be a boy.

Today’s parents are offered fashion choices for their girls (heeled, scrappy shoes) for instance that can limit the girls ability to actual use their bodies.

To be fair, for parties, when a child, there was a fair expectation to be dressed up too. I think this is almost a product of fast fashion - that this stuff is available freely, so you can dress your child in basically party-wear every day if you wanted - and party-wear for girls has always been impractical

70s 80s childhoods were much more gender neutral anyway. Partly the culture of the time and perhaps because kids played outside with friends and neighborhood kids - and having any sort of adventure often took place in nature den building, climbing, biking, playing in the dirt. I think beinga 'Tom biy' may be the default but many girls are socialised out of it depending on their parents views. If the girls who really don't like bring outdoors, mud, being physical etc.. there are probably a similar amount of boys with the same feelings. On top of that you have girls and boys on the more extreme end of physical risk takers - adrenaline junkies so to speak. Children are just children and children like to play. Without gender codes and parents to tell them how, would they really play that differently?

Tge differences would be more apparent after puberty.

I would say that of course you had female socialisation. Strangers thinking you are a boy sometimes doesn't change how family, friends, teachers etc treated you, nor does it prevent you from absorbing the influences of our culture of what is appropriate for men and for women.

Kicking against it doesn't mean you weren't experiencing it.

Sorry againDidoat my daughter’s mixed sex comp school the popular girls most definitely don’t do well in tests. That is the reason some parents, despite other moral objections, choose single sex schools for their daughters

So how do you explain the fact more girls in the UK than boys go to university?

Across the UK, 27.3% of all young men are expected to go to university this year compared with37.1%of women

That difference is not made up by single sex schools.

Or that "hard" subjects like medicine , veterinary medicine, law and accountancy are female dominated?

I think you're projecting a bit

Massively tbh.

I’m forty. Pretty much everyone my age or older describes themselves as a Tomboy in childhood.

We all spent our days playing outside in the mud and the grass, climbing trees, collecting sticks, we all wore dungarees and tracksuits. Lego was our go to toy.

My sister was always a ‘feminine’ child as in she always had impractically long blond hair and loved dressing up as a princess rather than a pirate, but she still played out with us all and knew how to fix her bike.

Gender stereotypes have never been more rigid (in my lifetime) than right now. It’s crazy times.

None of that means we had male socialisation though, that’s ridiculous. I remember very clearly being told that the boy who pinched me obviously liked me and that it’s not ok for girls to shout in the street. Despite my cropped hair and brown dungarees.

We know that in babies changing how they're dressed changes how a stranger treats them.

Does this not apply to girls who present as boys growing up?

This is so interesting. My best friend as a child was a typical "Tom boy" she actually would only answer to a boy's name , had short hair and wore boy clothes ( or rather just unisex Mothercare as did we all). She liked football with the boys etc but to be really honest she wasn't actually much different from the rest of us. I'm naturally quite girly and liked dolls etc she certainly never played dolls with me. But we rode our bikes fast , climbed trees and built dens. I liked dresses etc but as that wasn't really practical for playing I was also dressed in unisex bright coloured clothes. Honestly if we were up a tree the only difference was hair length.
My friend is now married ( to a man) with 2 young children she may once have only answered to James ( her mother stubbornly just ignored such sillyness) but she is certainly all female now.
Children should be children and girls can do what is perceived as boy things and always have the.
I fear no days my friend would have been declared transgender. In our day her mother just declared the hair and clothes practical and ignored the rest.

I was very much a tomboy and resented being female when there were different expectations on me compared to my brothers. Always got on my nerves. I'm actually fine being female and have (and always had) a good relationship with my body, although in many ways I still don't completely fit in with other groups of women (always a bit of an outlier).
I think the only time I really remember wanted to be a boy was in late junior (age 10 ish), but I'm sure that was just frustration at being told I couldn't do things.
I was called laddie a lot until the boobs grew.