Do Tom Boys have female socialisation?

[DJLippy]

Does presenting as a boy in childhood effect the development of "female socialisation."

As a child I had short hair and wore boys clothes. Strangers would assume I was a boy and I was constantly mis-sexed. Without secondary sex characteristics the only way we can tell what sex a child is is via signifiers like hair and clothes.

I played rough and tumble with the lads and didnt really have any female friends until I went to secondary school. Most of my play (which helps yo inform interests and behaviours) was "as a boy" - wrestling and climbing trees and playing war.

Now obviously these are all arbitrary things and they dont have a 'gender' but as a society we ascribe meaning onto these things.

The adults and my friends knew I was really a girl so I dont know whether I was ever treated 'as a boy' but strangers would have had no idea. Also, did the constant mismatch between my gender presentation and sex 'trick' their brains into viewing me as a boy?

A significant amount of a child development comes from interacting with your peers. I never really had any close female friends until I went to secondary school. I didnt sit quietly and play 'nice'. I dont know if I ever learnt that knack. As an adult I can be quite tactless with female friends because I dont play along with the hidden code of behaviour we are all supposed to have learnt.

When I went to secondary school I had to grow out my hair and the sexes became segregated again so I could say my 'male identity' ended then. Puberty has a significant effect in the formation of female socialisation because you realise how vulnerable you are to aggressive male sexuality - even via small acts like having your bra string pulled.

Now obviously I didnt experience true 'male socialisation' but I dont think I experienced true 'female socialisation.' How much did my childhood gender incongruence effect my development as a girl and a woman? Did I manage to avoid a certain amount of my socialisation?

DJLippy could have been describing my experience of growing up.
I had a very fucked up childhood due to a long family history of CSA, and I was encouraged to be a tomboy to reduce male attention. At the same time, I was derided for it.
Female socialisation is much more than surface presentation. Few of my female relatives did hair, make up or clothes; but we were all expected to be skivvies, to always reduce ourselves, be passive, never push ourselves forwards. Shut up and put up.
The men and boys came first. They ate first, they got the best of everything. By the age of 8 I could do all of the housework, and cook a 3 course roast dinner. I had to learn to take responsibility.
At the age of 8 my brother got stuck on the roof and had to be rescued. He was told never to do it again.

I wondered, as per the OP, whether playing out and being physical led to great spatial awareness

In my case, no. I have terrible spatial awareness. I also rode bikes, played in the nearby woods, played with nearest neighbour's son, played with lego and this next one makes me really special- climbed trees! All without having to appropriate the rather silly title of "tom- boy"

Thanks for the belittling lecture, we were given the label. Most of us just thought of ourselves as kids until we were sneered at or excluded for being ''different''.

I grew up in the country doing all the things you describe as 'tomboyish' with a brother. I rejected any treatment of me that was different to him purely because I was a girl from an early age (that I was aware of). I was skinny and flat chested with short hair as a teenager and was still mistaken for a boy by strangers whilst also being subject to the delightful bra twanging and low level sexual harassment endemic in secondary schools just because I was a girl.
In my adult life I don't do lots of things that are considered feminine but am very comfortable personally being a woman, interacting with women etc. Still irritates me to be a woman in this world but hey ho.
I wonder if it's not so much how you present to others but your home dynamics growing up. My Mum couldn't care less about gendered stuff or bullshit/drama whoever was doing it. I think that's had far more of an influence on my values and behaviour than how I presented to others.
OP - you obviously had a home situation that allowed you to be a 'tom boy'. If your parents had felt that wasn't appropriate for a girl etc then you would have had more traditionally female (urgh) behaviour expected of you and may have grown up differently with a different idea of 'being a woman'. Surely family influence in your formative years is important.

Thanks for the belittling lecture, we were given the label

And which label on thread after thread on here is trotted out like a badge of honour. Usually backed up with lists of perfectly normal childhood activities to prove the poster was a tomboy.

@Didolamebting I agree. I don't think playing with Lego/climbing a tree puts this whole gulf between you and 'all the other girls' to the point where your whole socialisation is different and 'other girls' don't want to play with you. Just more embedded misogynistic bullshit.

Dido you should have told all the girls who rejected me for being just another ordinary girl

Stop jumping on threads and derailing them and making them all about YOU.

I feel very sad for children nowadays, with such rigid gender stereotyping that they are deemed to be “trans” if they don’t fit in the cramped pigeonhole of their birth sex.
My own daughters, born in 1989 and 90, had no such restrictions. Toys came from the Early Learning Centre, and were completely non sexist.
My DDs played with both boys and girls at school and in the neighbourhood.
They had jeans and shorts and practical shoes so they could run, climb trees etc, but also pretty dresses for parties. They liked Lego, jigsaws, board games, books, and played “houses” with sets of Sylvanian animals.
Nobody told autistic DD1 that she was transgender for being obsessed with trains and doing a maths degree! She is now 30 and in a happy 5 year relationship with her boyfriend.
I wish society would tell the TRAs to drop their gender stereotype nonsense and simply enjoy being themselves- a man should be able to wear make up and dresses without claiming to be a woman, which he patently never can be.
In the 70’s and 80’s such freedom existed - you have only to look at Bowie, Boy George et al.

I don't think playing with Lego/climbing a tree puts this whole gulf between you and 'all the other girls' to the point where your whole socialisation is different and 'other girls' don't want to play with you

When the label Tomboy is imposed upon you it does affect your socialisation. It may not mean that you are socialised as a male rather than as a female, but you are socialised as an outsider, an oddity, a 'wrong' female.

Some girls embrace the label and are comfortable with it, but that does not change the message that society drums in to them, that they are doing female wrong.

@JellySlice I don't know if timing is important here, with lots of people referring to the 70s, but I don't think every 'tomboy' is shamed or excluded for being so. Maybe the question should be if you were shamed for doing 'boy stuff' has that affected your socialisation, rather than just doing the 'boy stuff' in the first place.
I was born late 80s and my experience chimes much more with @babadoc description.
It is also really irritating to write off the whole of the rest of the female population in OPs school as 'not like her' and surmising they all rejected and excluded her for this one aspect of herself. I think that shows a massively low opinion of women and girls and the focus is on the girls not mixing with her not the boys not mixing with girls in general. I think it's sexist stereotyping.

When the label Tomboy is imposed upon you it does affect your socialisation. It may not mean that you are socialised as a male rather than as a female, but you are socialised as an outsider, an oddity, a 'wrong' female.

Is that not a part of female socialisation? For there to be a right way to be a girl, there has to be a wrong way. It would not just be being guided to what we should like/be/do, but also what we shouldn't. Some girls might like playing with dolls and with a free choice, they'd pick to do so, some might play with dolls because they don't know there are other options, some might actively choose not to play with dolls because they resent the expectation, but they all know girls are supposed to play with dolls and the latter is just their individual reaction? And there would also be variations depending on the adults around the child too and their own expectations and values, and family dynamics. The actual experience of female socialisation will be varied and personal to every girl, but they'd all be based on the same thing. (Sorry if this isn't making sense.)

Maybe the question should be if you were shamed for doing 'boy stuff' has that affected your socialisation, rather than just doing the 'boy stuff' in the first place.

Agree.

I think I might have learned something important from this thread. I’m not that old but rural so my education was probably dated. Enid Blyton’s George was still in the school library. She was a Tom Boy. Definitely a good thing. Aspiring to be as good as the males was a step up.
But I definitely heard sissy (like a sister) as an insult, because males being feminine was a step down in the bully’s mindset.
Has this all changed? Is all gender non-conformity now punished by some?
Any hope?
Some men seem to be able to show their “feminine side”. Someone like Cillian Murphy, a slight, below average height man, is now a leading man, playing the mastermind/gang leader.

Putting it very crudely, the girl who plays with dolls, willingly or reluctantly, is rewarded whereas the girl who does not, is punished. So both are socialised as girls, but one with the message that she is girling correctly, the other with the message that she is girling wrong. A message I'm sure most of us have received and internalised many times, regardless of how feminine our behaviour. And even with tolerant and gender critical adults around us.

I don't think that being perceived as a boy by strangers will have a male-socialisation effect. It may give the girl a candid glimpse into the life of a boy, it may give her momentary satisfaction and a transient feeling of liberation, but it does not change her awareness of herself as female. All the important people in her life, parents, teachers, herself, all know what she is and treat her as a female - even if subconsciously.

I feel like lots of transgender folk think that because they rejected gender norms or felt uncomfortable with the expectations of their sex that they did not have male/female socialisation. I've been one to argue that this is not the case - because even fighting against their correct socialisation and receiving push back is a form of socialisation. You can be praised for being a good girl or punished for being a bad girl but you're judged AS A GRIL.

However, maybe there is more nuance than this? I'm thinking about Blanchards typology of HST2 and AGP transsexual males. The former often "pass" really well. They often have been 'girly' from birth. They had opposite sex friends growing up. Meanwhile AGP typology transsexual males dont often pass and have the behaviours and mannerisms of traditional 'men.' Now, perhaps this is just surface level behaviour and not really indicative of a deeper level of sex based behaviour and entitlement. But the fact that one group can adjust much easier to "living as a woman" is a result of socialising in a female peer group?

DJLippy

Didoyou should have told all the girls who rejected me for being just another ordinary girl

I was bullied by a group of non- academically inclined girls for being clever. So what?

You said Because growing up I WAS different from other girls - I bet every single teenager thinks they are different.

Stop jumping on threads and derailing them and making them all about YOU

Almost every one who has posted has posted has given their personal experience. My posts are no more all about me than anyone else's.

I have questioned why "gender critical feminists " are so determined to insist that activities which are no more or less activities which many children, girls and boys do, are some how proof that they were "tomboys". It's no different from trans activists insisting on gendered activities determine what gender one is.

Riding a cycle as a child no more makes you a tomboy than it makes you a trans boy.

Stop jumping on threads and derailing them and making them all about YOU.

During the Holocaust, very young Jewish boys on Nazi-occupied areas were sometimes disguised as girls so that they could be hidden in plain view. Many children were hidden in one way or another, and most were severely traumatised by their experiences. I wonder whether there were any follow-up studies on these boys who were taught to 'be' girls from a very early age, and were treated as girls by everyone.

It is also really irritating to write off the whole of the rest of the female population in OPs school as 'not like her' and surmising they all rejected and excluded her for this one aspect of herself. I think that shows a massively low opinion of women and girls and the focus is on the girls not mixing with her not the boys not mixing with girls in general. I think it's sexist stereotyping

I agree entirely.

I too grew up looking like a boy, wore shorts tees jeans and jumpers year round, hated dresses with a passion. (bare in mind this was the 60's and 70's)Was mistaken for a boy often, rode bikes, horses, played with girls and boys the main most annoying boy is now my Dh
Had a shoebox filled with matchbox cars, and babydolls that gathered dust.
Lots of strong women in the family all independant and raised kids alone. Sister was the epitome of girliness in her frills and had long hair.
I knew I was a girl, just didn't conform to the girl approved ways.
I had to explain all this to Dd not long ago, she was doubting herself, she likes boy stuff as well as girl, does it mean she's gay or bi or should be trans?
I told her who cares what you like, there are girls and boys who don't conform, they are who they are, and just like what they like, it doesn't mean they should take hormones and get body parts choppped off.
Men who are more feminine or delicate are just as much a man as a woman with short hair and tattoos is a woman.
If we all liked the same things how boring life would be

We all spent our days playing outside in the mud and the grass, climbing trees, collecting sticks, we all wore dungarees and tracksuits. Lego was our go to toy.

Same here, most of the kids around where we lived, whether male of female, did. 70s. All our parents would have thought there was something wrong with you if you didn't want to spend all day, every day 'out and about' with your pals doing physical stuff all through the summer.

I do get whatDido means though re the tomboy "not like other girls" narrrative. Personally most of my childhood I and ALL my female friends thought and was treated as if it was quite natural to do 'both' tree climbing/bike riding and then party dresses etc if we wanted, but everyone was just themselves.. I don't remember any of us getting pulled up for not being girly enough. I think most of that is social expectation of the people around you, and my recollection is of that really changing more from the 80s onwards and the 'girl/boy' toy marketing intensifying.

What I DO remember though is a very conscious so-called "tomboy" phase I had aged around 10 when I refused point blank to do or wear anything that was deemed girly at all and was delighted if people thought I was a boy. It wasn't that I "wasn't like the other girls" or thought I wasn't really a girl. It was conscious because I think the social expectations of impending teenhood started to become more apparent to me (perhaps parents had tried to reign me in a bit in a "Now is the time to put away childish things" type way. And I do remember some of the girls at school starting to develop be 'more grown up' and get more stereotypically teeny in their behaviour)
I distinctly remember this feeling that my freedom was about to be taken away and really not wanting it to and not feeling ready. So I guess I must at least have been very aware of the social aspects of gender expectations and finding them rigid.

I was seen as a Tom boy as a child, I hated it as to me I was just a child. It did me no good as girls wouldn't play with me at all and I never developed any female friendships, I went into an industry which was nearly exclusively male and still is, I was always the token woman. It caused no end of problems, least of all the total lack of the ability to relate to other women but not belonging with the men either. I'd have been forced down the trans route if it had been a thing then and that wouldn't have been right for me.

I think some posters are missing the point. Tomboys are girls who just do normal stuff (as it seems to us), and get told they are getting 'being a girl' wrong, by the people around them.

I don't remember any of us getting pulled up for not being girly enough. I think most of that is social expectation of the people around you
Yes, thats what pp have been saying. You didn't get labelled a tomboy, but we did. The label stuck because we had to be a bit defiant to carry on doing the stuff we liked and not get pulled into line.

When I was primary school age, I definitely came under the description of a tomboy. I wasn't the slightest bit interested in dolls etc. and much preferred wearing shorts or jeans than dresses or skirts. I had quite short hair and was flat-chested too, but because I had to wear girls clothes at school, my friends knew I was female but didn't treat me any different from the boys.

I preferred the boys type games, but wasn't the only girl to do so. On occasions I think my mum would have preferred to be a bit more feminine, but she didn't make a big thing about it.
Things started to change once I was at secondary school. For one thing we had separate boys and girls schools, so I began to drift apart from the boys and for another I was becoming self conscious about my developing figure.

This thread does illustrate the problem of which trans is just the latest iteration.

As soon as anyone adopts any kind of masculine gender role that role always relies on there being women and girls who are seen as subordinate, stereotypical and to blame if they don’t incessantly cheerlead for masculinity.

And I have never known any child, male or female, who didn’t sometimes act in a care taking role towards a doll or soft toy. Having no caring instincts is not a badge of honour.

I was the same- hated dresses, most of my friends were boys at primary, never been a girly girl. Loved the way things worked or how they were put together, good spatial awareness etc. My sister used to call me practical as an insult!
Mum said if I’d been born today I would have been targeted by the woke questioning my gender. But here I am as a straight female knowing I’m a woman. 🙂