Do Tom Boys have female socialisation?

[DJLippy]

Does presenting as a boy in childhood effect the development of "female socialisation."

As a child I had short hair and wore boys clothes. Strangers would assume I was a boy and I was constantly mis-sexed. Without secondary sex characteristics the only way we can tell what sex a child is is via signifiers like hair and clothes.

I played rough and tumble with the lads and didnt really have any female friends until I went to secondary school. Most of my play (which helps yo inform interests and behaviours) was "as a boy" - wrestling and climbing trees and playing war.

Now obviously these are all arbitrary things and they dont have a 'gender' but as a society we ascribe meaning onto these things.

The adults and my friends knew I was really a girl so I dont know whether I was ever treated 'as a boy' but strangers would have had no idea. Also, did the constant mismatch between my gender presentation and sex 'trick' their brains into viewing me as a boy?

A significant amount of a child development comes from interacting with your peers. I never really had any close female friends until I went to secondary school. I didnt sit quietly and play 'nice'. I dont know if I ever learnt that knack. As an adult I can be quite tactless with female friends because I dont play along with the hidden code of behaviour we are all supposed to have learnt.

When I went to secondary school I had to grow out my hair and the sexes became segregated again so I could say my 'male identity' ended then. Puberty has a significant effect in the formation of female socialisation because you realise how vulnerable you are to aggressive male sexuality - even via small acts like having your bra string pulled.

Now obviously I didnt experience true 'male socialisation' but I dont think I experienced true 'female socialisation.' How much did my childhood gender incongruence effect my development as a girl and a woman? Did I manage to avoid a certain amount of my socialisation?

Today’s parents are offered fashion choices for their girls (heeled, scrappy shoes) for instance that can limit the girls ability to actual use their bodies.

But they've also got the choice of Converse, trainers, doc martens, kickers - all fashionable, all possible to be active in.

Sorry again Dido at my daughter’s mixed sex comp school the popular girls most definitely don’t do well in tests.

But girls out perform boys in secondary school. My daughter and her friends were in top sets all the way through school and achieved very high grade GCSEs and A levels - maybe the clue is in you saying the "popular girls" - when I was at school the popular boys didn't do well because they were more concerned with mucking about than doing work.

I don't want to completely erase the shit show that is socialisation within the patriarchy, but you have described your tom boy time as rejecting gender norms and your teenage time as succumbing to them. Do you feel you ever just...did what you liked? And maybe that changed over time?

I guess I mean succumbing to the gender messages that had been drummed into me from birth
Well there's your answer.
You had female socialisation.
You got labelled a "tom boy" when you acted differently.
The female socialisation worked well.

Yes,
Even tomboys had female socialisation.

Yes,
Even if you looked and dressed like a boy to strangers, socialisation comes from social groups who would know your sex. Eg, your male friends, your family, your family friends, your teachers, your church, your clubs, etc all knew you were a really a girl.

Yes,
Even before you hit puberty, you had female socialisation.

Does being gender non-conforming alter the form of socialisation you recieved?

I'd like to know the age at which we consider girls as 'tomboys'. I don't think we'd describe a 1 year old crawling around in the dirt as such, but it seems to come in maybe what, six onwards? Can it be a coincidence that that's around school starting time when uniforms, names, new expectations are put on kids? We also don't apply the term to say, non-conforming uni students.
However I looked/what I did I could never not be a girl throughout my schooling because it was always known.
Maybe they are particular ages for pushback - when you're put in a school uniform and dressed differently to your male peers and when you're about to head down the threatening tunnel that is puberty.

Does being gender non-conforming alter the form of socialisation you recieved?
I think you get either side of the same coin, but it's all really the same. I don't think it gives you any protection from things like sexual abuse and the really pernicious expectations that were described really well in a previous post.

I don't want to completely erase the shit show that is socialisation within the patriarchy, but you have described your tom boy time as rejecting gender norms and your teenage time as succumbing to them. Do you feel you ever just...did what you liked? And maybe that changed over time?

I think that's a really good question and it gets to the bottom of something I've been thinking about a lot but didn't really know how to say. Something about people sort of performing themselves rather than just being themselves. I hope that one day more people feel able to "just be".

Doesn't it depend on what the nature of being gender non-conforming refers to? Its not just about clothes, hair & play preferences but how children are socialised to interact with other people.

@DJLippy

Does being gender non-conforming alter the form of socialisation you recieved?

No it doesn’t. It’s the natural outcome of being socialised. You either choose to conform, or you choose not to conform. But the initial socialisation is the same. It either overtly or covertly pressures you to conform and punishes you if you non conform.

Do you feel you ever just...did what you liked? And maybe that changed over time?

I always thought I randomly liked "boys stuff" but on reflection I think there was an element of my gender non-conformity which was more "male identification". Because we receive such gendered messages as kids i think its worth exploring what leads a child to reject or embrace certain activities.

I think I superficially "succumbed" with shallow things like hair. But I always liked more "boy stuff" even as a teenager. I was an indie kid into Oasis not Boyzone. I still do like things traditionally viewed as more masculine. I think as an adult you realise this is all superficial BS and that things shouldn't be gendered. But I've been reflecting on what was "behind" my actions as a child. Was it just that I liked arbitrary things which society gendered as male or did I like things because they were gendered as male?

Yes, thats what pp have been saying. You didn't get labelled a tomboy, but we did. The label stuck because we had to be a bit defiant to carry on doing the stuff we liked and not get pulled into line.

I understood what people were saying, thanks. The entire point is that ideas around behaviour being "girlish" or "boyish" are a social construct and are policed accordingly according to the time, era and social world in which you live

It was considered 'normal kid behaviour' for me and my female friends back in 70s (childhood only though) to be riding bikes, tree climbing etc but I think in that era, it was generally expected that it would change at adolescence. But for boys at the time, playing with dolls etc would def have been considered completely no-go and "demeaning" in a way that I don't think us riding bikes, tree climbing etc was. Anything designated as being for girls is supposedly lesser.

I agree with others that have said you're socialised 'as a girl' (or a boy) regardless of whether you fit the stereotype. Socialised on the 'axis' of being a boy or a girl, if you like. A "girlish" boy is not literally being socialised as female, but on whether or not he's adequately fitting into what society deems boyhood. A so-called boyish girl likewise, and, depending on how rigid the 'rules' are at the time, both are treated accordingly.

I was a tomboy. I had cropped short hair from age 7 most of the time until I was 35. I was pretty consistently thought to be a boy until I was at least 15 (I had small boobs and not much of a waist or hips) if wearing something that wasn't obviously 'girly'. I did actually wear dresses and 'girls clothes', but all my friends were boys until secondary school (when it was still half and half) and most of my toys were 'boy' ones. I was very sensitive, didn't like sports and was very non-competitive, so I wouldn't say I had an archetypally 'boy' personality. My parents were fine with how I was and never tried to change me.

Interestingly, DD is fairly similar to me, although always had female friends (thought acquiring male friends at secondary now). The big change from when I was a kid is that, when she gets misgendered and tells people she is a girl people often don't believe her. She doesn't even look like a boy, she just has short hair! (I genuinely looked like a boy) It's like people have completely lost the idea that a young girl could have short hair - she says people often look at her puzzled when she's out in a dress/skirt because they just can't figure her out (and she's getting boobs now as well, also very unlike me at her age!). No one has tried to suggest to me she is trans, so I'm unconvinced by all those who say 'Oh, everyone would be getting me to transition these days'

She is nearly 12 and thinks she might be bi or lesbian (I think I was pretty asexual until my 20s and then hetero) and she has alluded to maybe being non-binary. DH and I have agreed our messaging to her would be that a lot of people are claiming to be non-binary when really what they mean is 'I don't like gender norms' and it's better for her and the wider world to own being a woman and say that being a woman doesn't have to mean being this way or that. She can and should be a woman how she likes.

As for the genderedness of things - I liked 'boys' toys' because I didn't enjoy the typical social, nurturing, chatting play of girls. I liked the action and imagination and girls' play seemed much less interesting to me. I'm a bit socially awkward and I think I lean towards friendship with people on the grounds of 'they're fun to hang out with', which I think is more of a bloke thing, rather than 'they're the best, most loyal, caring friends' (I have to admit, some of the friends I've made aren't actually great people).

My DH probably has more confiding, close friendships than I do!

@echobelly do you think that being perceived to a certain extent as a boy altered your female socialisation?

Really interesting how your DD is perceived more as a boy in 2020. Do you think people actually treat her as that sex?

On the tomboy thing, growing up my family never called me a tomboy, I was just me. I didn't get treated the same as my brothers and that's something I've noticed more as an adult, but in my family the expectation was that I as the girl, was more sensible and capable of independence. My mum didnt expect me to dress a certain way, or to play with certain toys or anything, and it wasn't a big deal. When my stbx partner's family saw pictures as me as a child, the first thing they all said, and said with shock, is what a tomboy I was.

In their family they had very rigid expectations about what little girls are and what little boys are. In adulthood this translates to men being the heads of the households, and women barely capable of checking their bank statements without getting our poor heads in a pickle.

Although his sister seems to enjoy the whole "feminine" experience and appears to be bringing up her dd in a similar way, I feel like she didn't have much choice. She was the youngest child and the much wanted girl with 4 older brothers. Her parents specifically wanted a girl, they had very clear views of what a girl is, and I don't know how they'd have reacted if she'd ever pushed back against living out the role the way they thought she should, but my experience of them tells me that they wouldn't have taken it well. We both experienced female socialisation, but I feel like I had more freedom to be myself than she did.

I'm wondering if you have a proper grasp of what socialisation is.

All children are socialised to learn how boys, girls, men, women are expected to behave. Socialised to learn what a boy "should be like" and what a girl "should be like" through the adult world.

Most children develop personalities that are not strictly adherent to these stereotypes.

Simply knowing you are of one sex or another gives you a doctrine so you understand what you "should be like as a 100% stereotype".

The phrase "female socialisation" refers to understanding that you are female, that there are stereotypes surrounding your sex and pressures to conform to this. It doesn't mean that females who don't conform to expected stereotypes have a different type of socialisation, or escape these pressures.

Likewise, male children who prefer to be effeminate are also socialised to think that effeminate qualities belong to females, they'll be called "camp" etc. They're given a label separate to other boys. The male child has not escaped male socialisation in the slightest.

It's like people have completely lost the idea that a young girl could have short hair - she says people often look at her puzzled when she's out in a dress/skirt because they just can't figure her out

This is what's so scary. How on earth can we, in a few short years, got to a place where we've regressed so far into sex-role rigidity that it's literally incomprehensible to people that girls with short hair can exist as girls.

@DJLippy - no, I don't think being treated as a boy changed my identity. I was always clear in my head that I was female, though I was aware I was different from most girls and I liked that. I never minded being mistaken for a boy, like my daughter - we agreed that if we were the sort of girls to be upset by that, we wouldn't have short hair in the first place! I don't think she is treated actually as a boy any more than I was.

@Echobelly You sound so similar to me in your first paragraph. I've had times where my hair has been long (as an adult) but it's mostly been very short, sometimes shaved (not always by choice - illness). It seems to be this really key thing that people think signifies gender/sexuality (I mean obviously, I know that's not news) but even being petite and in school uniform which includes a skirt I'd be mistaken for male, as I got older assumed to be lesbian. Even if you're fairly gender conforming in most ways short hair seems to be so incongruous to some people. Whyyyy?? I was born late 80s and I know the 90s/2000s it was maybe less common than the 70s it, still! I've been told by friends that I'm brave to have short hair, I mean, whhhhhyyyyyy?!?!

Because gender....

I was described as a tom boy by my parents and interpreted that as meaning that the fun stuff I did - climbing trees etc - was a boy thing to do. They'd use it a lot, they'd introduce me to people as a tom boy when actually no label was needed - who labels their child when introducing them to others? Being a tom boy was seen as something desirable and being a feminine girl was not.
When I had children they would have whatever toys they wanted to have - DD#1 had garages and dolls and would climb trees, DS did the same and would play with dolls sometimes, rockets and so on other times. DD#2 would go for the dolls and the train set, they were all just toys and not boys/girls toys.
I think labelling childen as tom boys was pretty unhealthy but nothing compared to all the trans nonsense with young children that goes on now.

I’m forty. Pretty much everyone my age or older describes themselves as a Tomboy in childhood.

We all spent our days playing outside in the mud and the grass, climbing trees, collecting sticks, we all wore dungarees and tracksuits. Lego was our go to toy.

This. I'm over 40. Used to climb everything, even into the neighbours gardens. Loved Lego, was horrified to find it was considered a boys toy now and they needed to make pink and purple versions for the girls.

I would say that toys were somewhat associated with one or the other though. I put up with borderline bullying for liking 'boys' things like He-Man.

@DJLippy

Because gender...

But why hair?!? I have a female body, could be in heels, dress, carrying a handbag with a full face of make up but short hair undermines my whole gender?! I'm sorry I'm derailing your thread a bit.
However I suppose it's slightly interesting because some times I've had short hair - say my illness meant I was growing it out after losing most of it - that aspect of my outward appearance had nothing to do with personal choice or compliance/rejection of gender norms so my internal identity wasn't influencing my outward appearance. However I would still get the same gendered reaction to it from others. It's been interesting at times to be viewed as and experience the works like you're gender non-conforming when really all it is is your follicles can only grow hair so fast and you're not wearing a dress.

The world not works*