Do Tom Boys have female socialisation?

[DJLippy]

Does presenting as a boy in childhood effect the development of "female socialisation."

As a child I had short hair and wore boys clothes. Strangers would assume I was a boy and I was constantly mis-sexed. Without secondary sex characteristics the only way we can tell what sex a child is is via signifiers like hair and clothes.

I played rough and tumble with the lads and didnt really have any female friends until I went to secondary school. Most of my play (which helps yo inform interests and behaviours) was "as a boy" - wrestling and climbing trees and playing war.

Now obviously these are all arbitrary things and they dont have a 'gender' but as a society we ascribe meaning onto these things.

The adults and my friends knew I was really a girl so I dont know whether I was ever treated 'as a boy' but strangers would have had no idea. Also, did the constant mismatch between my gender presentation and sex 'trick' their brains into viewing me as a boy?

A significant amount of a child development comes from interacting with your peers. I never really had any close female friends until I went to secondary school. I didnt sit quietly and play 'nice'. I dont know if I ever learnt that knack. As an adult I can be quite tactless with female friends because I dont play along with the hidden code of behaviour we are all supposed to have learnt.

When I went to secondary school I had to grow out my hair and the sexes became segregated again so I could say my 'male identity' ended then. Puberty has a significant effect in the formation of female socialisation because you realise how vulnerable you are to aggressive male sexuality - even via small acts like having your bra string pulled.

Now obviously I didnt experience true 'male socialisation' but I dont think I experienced true 'female socialisation.' How much did my childhood gender incongruence effect my development as a girl and a woman? Did I manage to avoid a certain amount of my socialisation?

Tomboys are girls who just do normal stuff (as it seems to us), and get told they are getting 'being a girl' wrong, by the people around them.

Not to derail the thread but do you think you've put the cart before the horse? Like, you liked things which society had gendered "boy" or did you like those things precisely because they were boy gendered.

I always thought I just happened to like boys stuff, but on reflection I think that I was forming an identity which was explicitly rejecting a girl identity. I've read up a lot on transgender kids and often there is a history of abuse in their childhoods. I know this reflects my own story. I saw all the shit that women get and I wanted to opt out. So yeah, Dido and others are right that being a tomboy was my version of "not like other girls". It's a double bind that women are in, where both embracing your correct gender role and rejecting your gender role is a sign of internalised misogyny. You get punished either way.

I was a tomboy and it has continued throughout my life ( I am nearing 60). I have had long term relationships with both men and women. I am currently married to a man..
I have long hair but my DH has even longer hair. He wears more makeup than me when we go out. I have no dresses and I don't have any heels. This weekend saw me putting a new bathroom suite in. I can cook and bake and I am an excellent home maker.
I have been raped, had an abortion, been sexually assaulted more times than I can remember. As a child and a punk teen I was regularly seen as male and then as androgynous. Apparently my uni peers thought I was a lad until I got pregnant and then it was obvious I wasn't. I have been talked down to, I have been passed over for promotion, I have been paid less than my male colleagues. All because I am a woman.

DD is in her 30s. When she was 4 she said she had stopped being a girl and for about 18 months she would only answer to the name 'Bob' . We called her bob but I always said she was a girl. She asked for traditionally male clothes and toys...I provided them.
When she started school she lost Bob and reverted back to her real name.
Then when she was 14 she came out to me as a lesbian. It all made sense....at 4 she had no idea what being gay was. She had no idea ( and quite rightly) about sex and sexuality. Being bob was obviously her young mind sorting out who she is. I gave her a similar upbringing to mine...I taught her how to change a tyre, put up a shelf and make a fucking excellent Victoria sponge.
If I had been a child now I would've been transed, my daughters would probably not be here, my grandson wouldn't either. I wouldn't be with the love of my life who definitely wants to be with a woman with a vagina!
But the most scary thing is my beautiful butch lesbian daughter would've also been transed and would now be living a medically managed existence.

The thought horrifies me

It’s a bit hard to quantify the socialisation. Sure people can be unaware of how they have been socialised. But I think also, others can’t understand all the experience of an individual.

Should we change socialisation? Should we get more girls into physics and boys into nursing? Or should we value nursing more than physics?

I think kids at primary school seem to exacerbate sex differences a lot more - preferring to play with those of the same sex and enforcing rules. I think it’s probably more than many adults do.

Of course they do. You say it yourself "The adults and my friends knew I was really a girl". Parents, teachers, doctors, playgroup/sports, books, magazines, television. We're surrounded by it. Some rando calling you 'sonny" doesn't undo any of that.

Do tom boys have the same socialisation as "normal" girls? Does rejecting gender norms and not identifying with girls alter how you receive all these gendered messages?

It's a double bind that women are in, where both embracing your correct gender role and rejecting your gender role is a sign of internalised misogyny. You get punished either way.

Yes, exactly. You lose no matter what you do. That's the patriarchy.

I agree with pps who have said that tomboys are mainstream. It's a normal girl path so yes it's all the same female socialisation.

It’s a bit hard to quantify the socialisation.

This is a really important point. What is socialisation? Is it?
-society and "heteronormative" gendered messages in the broader culture
-family
-peers
-wider society and strangers who go off signifiers like hair and clothes to assign sex to a child.

It's a mixture of all of these aspects.

Also, how does socialisation effect you throughout life? Lots of kids are quite resistant to gender norms until they go to school. Then at secondary school and when you go through puberty the message changes and girls who managed to resist gender norms 'succumb' like me. Some women resist this throughout their life. I think we continue to be socialised even as adults although we have the tools and language to resist these messages.

I feel like this thread has opened up a can of worms in my mind....

This: "Few of my female relatives did hair, make up or clothes; but we were all expected to be skivvies, to always reduce ourselves, be passive, never push ourselves forwards. Shut up and put up.
The men and boys came first. They ate first, they got the best of everything. By the age of 8 I could do all of the housework, and cook a 3 course roast dinner. I had to learn to take responsibility."

Btw if anyone is interested I did an interview with Stella O Malley about our childhood gender incongruence and the clinical definition of a "trans kid" here

Yeah I think that's interesting thinkit. It's the root if what gender is. While you can superficially "opt out" of gender roles with clothes and preferences; on a deeper level gender roles are about being subservient and second place.

Do tom boys have the same socialisation as "normal" girls?

Yes, because 'tomboyishness' is not necessarily driven by being 'abnormal', as you put it. The socialisation is applied externally.

Does rejecting gender norms and not identifying with girls alter how you receive all these gendered messages?

Only, I think, in the sense that such a girl would receive more negative messages, and she would be more likely to interpret neutral or gendered messages as negative.

Does rejecting gender norms and not identifying with girls alter how you receive all these gendered messages?

It doesn't really matter how you identify internally.

When you are a girl, you're treated like a girl, you're socialised as a girl.

When you're not a girl, you're not socialised as a girl.

Anyway, since when did being a "tomboy" mean "not a girl" ??
It's nonsense, it's just another label put on girls.
Tomboys are/were girls. Gender non conforming girls.

It's sad that tomboy has become an anachronism. It used to just mean "type of girl". Who was subject to the same stereotyping as other girls like the ones with the bad names.

I wouldn’t worry about succumbing as such. Does it matter if you have your hair long or short, wear heels or flats? Many people will want to attract a partner and will alter their behaviour accordingly.

Wanting a partner less may get rid of some ‘socialisation’. Also maybe being more accepting of a wider range of people as partners may also widen a pool of choice so that is conforming to society’s stereotypes matters less.

I suppose the same can be said about money and influence. If we want these - often we have to give up part of our ‘freedom’ to attain them - eg conform.

Do tom boys have the same socialisation as "normal" girls? Does rejecting gender norms and not identifying with girls alter how you receive all these gendered messages?

But, I don't think 'tomboys' are necessarily rejecting gender norms and not identifying with girls. That's a huge leap. I think a lot of them are just...being girls.

If we stopped separating them from the rest of their sex, especially by calling them 'tomboys', then I think we would be doing them and all girls a favour. Then they would just be girls with some interests like...all girls and boys.

It's just another patriarchal label put on girls.

I don't think 'tomboys' are necessarily rejecting gender norms and not identifying with girls.

Some are. And for some this is a very intense experience that we should recognise and respect.

Nonetheless, I agree that If we stopped separating them from the rest of their sex, especially by calling them 'tomboys', then I think we would be doing them and all girls a favour. Then they would just be girls with some interests like...all girls and boys.

When you are a girl, you're treated like a girl, you're socialised as a girl

Do gender nonconforming people receive a different form of gender socialisation? I'd say that I still received female socialisation but my reaction to that socialisation was different. How does the way a "girly girl" is treated by society differ from the way a "tomboy" is treated? One is rewarded for being a "correct girl" and one is punished (but maybe given certain priveledges) for doing girl "wrong". Does this alter our socialisation?

Does this alter our socialisation?

No? Why would it?

I was seen as a Tom boy as a child, I hated it as to me I was just a child.

I was often described a being a 'bit of a Tom boy' & got very indignant about this as I feIt strongly that I was me & whatever I was doing or wearing (or rather not doing or wearing) didnt make me anything else.

It's not just how you are treated but also how you see other girls and women treated, and boys and men. So there's no opting out.

I wonder if being punished has a more profound effect than being rewarded. I imagine if I displayed, er, 'correct girly girl gender norms' the praise and validation from that would be more subtle, and it might be harder to unpick that as you got older.
However being punished/shamed if you don't feel it's justified sticks in the mind. A non-conforming child might grow up with more awareness of stereotypes than a confirming child as shame runs deeper than validation? Just a thought.

I still find it hard to read things like 'I succumbed' though to describe your behaviour changing. Nothing wrong with growing your hair out etc, nothing to be ashamed about.

I know maybe that was the wrong word - freudian slip? I'm pretty gender non-conforming now but I did make an explicit effort to stop being such a tom boy because I didnt want to get bullied. Maybe "reconcile" is a better way to frame it?

I guess I mean succumbing to the gender messages that had been drummed into me from birth