How do you talk to teens about misogyny and trans issues?

[Walkingtheplank]

I've just been talking with my 13 year old daughter this evening and our conversation ended up being about trans issues - her saying we have to be kind, transwomen are women, NAMALT, accusing me of being one of those radical feminists - and me talking about gender stereotyping, how that damages us, and my concerns about the removal of single-sex spaces.

She clearly thinks I'm an awful bigot. How do you discuss this issue with your children?

It's not easy. Quite a few mothers are in your position.

I talked to my son (19) a while back and it sprung from a conversation about the Joe Rogan podcast and then onto sport which JR is quite vocal about. We then moved on to quite a few of the other issues.

It was probably simpler for me because DS wasn't hugely aware or invested either way.

Does she have any interests or hobbies that could be a talking point? Or any real life experiences that might make feminism more real and less conceptual to her?

I don't think there is anything that directly impacts her now. I did talk about wanting her to be able to go shopping or into a loo in a pub when she's older without there being any risk to her - but she focussed on the need to be kind. In fact she came out with quite a few of the classic one liners.

She has a teacher who in the last few weeks has squeezed in a lesson on the original Stonewall - but she wouldn't/couldn't tell me how women contributed to that - and the same teacher did an extracurricular session (which she missed) on 'The History of Drag.

I'm sure that she'll come out the other side of this - she's a bright questioning girl. Which is why it disappointed me that she came out with the usual one-liners and called me a radical feminist - not that she could define that, she just knew that to be a RF wasn't a good thing.

Hopefully if you just keep talking the penny will drop eventually. It's difficult when so much feminist and LGB history is being rewritten.

When you pit this against the natural instinct of many teen girls to push back and 'not be like Mum' it's the perfect storm of misinformation and rebellion.

My dd is only 5 so I haven't experienced this but can imagine just how difficult it must be. I think I'd stick with challenging gender stereotypes, or sex role stereotypes perhaps might be clearer. Getting her to recognise sexism when it is there. Probably not even mention the main issue directly, and hope that eventually she joins the dots.

Read "Why Does He DO That" with her, if she is a reader. It is basic information on avoiding people who prey on kind people like your daughter.

Why the fuck do 13 year olds need to be taught the history of drag?

Can you switch it round using the classic one liner of “we need to be kind” to look at all the categories of natal women that TWAW isn’t “kind” to? Eg in refuges, for women who have suffered violence / rape by a male, is it “kind” to force them to accept male-born people in that refuge either as staff or room-mate? Ditto prisons. Re toilets / changing rooms, is it “kind” to exclude women of certain religions or who have had certain difficult life experiences from accessing public life / recreational facilities by the inclusion of male-born people? Similar argument for sports... And, crucially, how can it be “kind” to dismiss someone’s genuine concerns with the language of “bigot” etc. Can she see that #nodebate just isn’t really very kind at all?
I find it torturous to use the “be kind” language but if the need to be kind has grabbed her, it may help her to think through the other implications of that phrase.

Long history here of teaching DC to "be kind" but also recognising boundaries (our own and others).
One DC on ASD spectrum (high functioning).
The ASD has been a blessing in one way, because we have had to talk about the kinds of things that are implicit in conversations... your turn, my turn, what sayings mean etc.

So, one of the things that we had to teach from early on, was that "be kind" does not equal be a doormat. Our saying became that "we teach people how to treat us....and sometimes we can teach them to walk all over us, so it's OK to say no".
And how to recognise when a friend is in trouble and needs "kind" vs how to recognise that our kindness is being manipulated.
So, other people's problems always remain that person's problem.
It's not ours to fix.

It's been useful when talking about gender dysphoria as we are using the same language.
We can feel sorry for that person's pain, and we can make accommodations for them- but their discomfort does not equal a right to make demands on our resources or time.

I am in the same situation. The ‘be kind’ mantra gets repeated and yes, I have been called a radical feminist just for holding my views.

I have taken a long term view because I have realized that she is getting the information from friends and not through school curriculum. And she has been slow to make friends so I don’t want to rock the boat.

Instead, I now tackle it piece by piece and I insist on teaching her to critically think about what she is told. I pointed out that people cannot change sex. She disagreed. I reminded her of climate change deniers, anti-vaxxers, creationalists, and flat earthers. She now gets that people cannot change sex. And that males should not compete in women’s sports.

She gets upset about me misgendering non binary . I have pointed out the narcissism behind making people go through linguistic hoops meaning that they are the complete focus of someone’s mind right then. We have always brought her up to reject stereotypes, of any kind, not just gender. I reminded her that people rarely fit these stereotypes and that NB means that person expects everyone else to fit a stereotypes so they can be different.

I tell her about the fight for employment rights and how angry I am that these are eroded. I told her all the incidents of discrimination I have had happen and how these are now meaningless because ‘men can have babies too’.

I have such a long way to go. But she is going nowhere. I want to keep it age appropriate and will continue to unpick it all. She gets very very upset when I discuss a dissenting view. It doesn’t help that I myself have taught her to be ‘kind’ to others.

Good luck! I am open for tips too.

I have started to teach my kids not to ‘be kind’. Instead I am trying to teach them about integrity and ‘doing the right thing’. ‘Be kind’ is generally about giving up your position to enable someone to have what they want now, but that might be harmful to them, yourself or others. It can be a way to bully people. It isn’t thought through. Doing the right think requires thought beyond the immediacy of the situation, it might not be the popular thing to do.

“You are cheerleading your friend to amputate your genitals, no friend does that”

That is a good one!

Instead I am trying to teach them about integrity and ‘doing the right thing’.

And this is now what I have changed my tactic to. I have also pointed out that we have always valued honesty and integrity very highly in our family

And my daughter just this morning was talking about pride. I told her that Pride is going to bring about many discussions on ‘transphobic if you don’t accept bepenised lesbians’. I told her I imagined if there were parades that there would be quite a few protesters out about it. She is still not budging from the ‘let them be what they want to be’. But I know she will. I can see the signs that she gets it really.

Show her the results of being “kind”. The prison rapes by violent male sex offenders, identifying as trans to get sent to women’s prisons. The sports scholarships and medals lost out on by girls having to compete against male athletes. The places on women’s shortlists taken by men.
Teenage girls having to get undressed or shower in front of men.
Remind her that over 80% of transwomen keep their penis.
Tell her about the cotton ceiling, about the homophobia and bullying of lesbians to accept sexual partners with penises.
Ask her why the TRAs are so desperate for “no debate” and silencing free speech, if their ideology is actually defensible.
Then ask her to apply logic and critical thinking instead of spouting silly mantras.

Kinda sounds like a lot of the people commenting in this thread arnt talking to their kids about trans issues, more like you're telling you're kids how you want them to think about trans issurs, you sound as heels dug in and stubborn as flat earthers and anti vaxxers. 'Be a free thinker, with exactly the same thoughts and beliefs as me' do you ever think that by being so forcefully against what they're saying you're just driving them deeper into their current thinking?

Is she too young for a coercive control chat?

We all know that it is impossible for a sperm producer to become an ovum releaser and vice versa. TW know that they are not women. She knows that they are not women, but is being coerced into pretending that they are. Why is that?

How is it kind to pretend that someone blatantly male passes as female?

As for the nonbinary nonsense, if sex is a spectrum (which of course it isn't), then nonbinary makes even less sense!

I found my teen ds started eye rolling and getting cross with me telling him the latest wtf thing I'd found out. So I backed right off and would just put little snippets in where I could.

Knowing the difference between sex and gender is a good start and I tend to go down the 'gender harms everyone' route to people new to the discussion

Remind her that over 80% of transwomen keep their penis.

I notice on the Baroness’s twitter someone had done some number crunching on Stonewall’s figures and this indicated that around 99% of transwomen keep their penis.

Strangely enough NekoShiro, as long as my daughter looked at it objectively while understanding the premise that people cannot biologically change sex, plus understand that female’s rights matter as much as transrights and female’s rights shouldn’t be eroded, I’d think I would have succeeded in raising a person who thinks critically.

She knows this. No forceably pushed beliefs. We have agreed to disagree on several other unrelated issues. I do NOT believe that at the moment she is connecting it all up. Because she is trying to not offend her friends and frankly, she is too young to deal with several aspects of this debate. And she has at least one friend who has identified as a transboy so she is very sensitive to this (as am I).

Happy to listen to how you’ve approached it with your teen daughter over the past 12 months NekoShiro. Was it successful?

NekoShiro, facts are facts. If my DDs had tried to say that the Sun goes round the Earth, or that Peru is in Europe, I would not have hesitated to tell them they were wrong. It’s exactly the same as claiming humans (or any mammal) can change sex, or that sex is a “spectrum”. Complete nonsense.
Teaching children to critically evaluate nonsensical beliefs is essential to keep them safe from cults. And the TRAs fit every criterion for being a cult.

Great thread and some good ideas. One of the problems is that because this is such a complex issue it feels very 'stressful' discussing this with our children. Not wanting to initiate the normal 'parent / child' reaction to a subject where we disagree and where our views will in their eyes be bigoted and old fashioned. Pointing out the evident links with the anti vaxxers and flat earthers is a good idea.
My adult daughter, after a number of years being very sceptical about trans issues recently told me she now shares my views on sport, single sex spaces etc. But she now fears for my safety as she sees how unpleasant and vitriolic most TRAs are

No idea where you go from here.

My 21 year old is firmly of the belief that TWAW (although also admits they have read nothing around it and just wants to be kind. In fact, they won't read anything around it because it's "irrelevant" they are worried they might read something that renders their position untenable

My 14 year old understands you can't change sex, you can present in any way you want but men and men and women are women.

I'm sure that she'll come out the other side of this - she's a bright questioning girl

The problem is that she believes she is being questioning by challenging the status quo.

My eldest automatically assumes this current position must be correct because it is the new one that has rejected all the misunderstandings and flawed, uninformed, ignorant science of the past.

My eldest automatically assumes this current position must be correct because it is the new one that has rejected all the misunderstandings and flawed, uninformed, ignorant science of the past.

This is why it is so hard for teens to navigate. How can the new way of thinking be ‘wrong’? Then my daughter catches some 80s music film clips and she does understand that this tightening of stereotypes is actually regressive not progressive. Particularly when she ties it into how self obsessed SM can be.