How do you talk to teens about misogyny and trans issues?

[Walkingtheplank]

I've just been talking with my 13 year old daughter this evening and our conversation ended up being about trans issues - her saying we have to be kind, transwomen are women, NAMALT, accusing me of being one of those radical feminists - and me talking about gender stereotyping, how that damages us, and my concerns about the removal of single-sex spaces.

She clearly thinks I'm an awful bigot. How do you discuss this issue with your children?

Quite easily in my situation with DS, less so with DSD.

DS 17 has very much a scientific mind. He read an article about Trans issues and asked me to to explain why people thought it was possible to change sex - because it was untrue.

He's sympathetic to people suffering from GD but on his own bat read up on AGP and is very much GC and has been vocal about it in school when T based organisations have visited his school and was surprised to find he's far from alone.

DSD is a few years older and got very much swept up by the Pride movement due to a friend being initially bi and then trans.

Conversations with her have been more difficult but as time as gone on she's done a full u-turn from being a trans ally to GC - but frankly not because of anything I said.

Rather she watched her friends (in her words) manipulations over time regarding her "special status" whilst realising she was a hetro teen like DSD by her actions.

But, on the other hand, if the OPs daughter had expressed a clearly GC viewpoint, would the OP have honestly taken the time to lay out the trans viewpoint and ensure that she was clear on their perspective so as she could decide?

What is 'the trans viewpoint'? That people can change sex? That sex isn't real but 'gender' is? How would you explain this to someone who isn't a believer? And why would you if you didn't believe it yourself? And since this belief system is so harmful for girls, why would anyone want to encourage their daughter to believe in it?

Once you are obliged to hold certain beliefs, or at least not challenge them, we arrive at a situation whereby the most dominant viewpoint becomes the only one that matters.

Which is where the danger lies with the current situation, where it is seen as unacceptable to challenge trans ideology. We have to be able to challenge this and to discuss this with children. They should not be getting such a one-sided view from schools and from what is in the media, and being told that any sort of questioning of this one-sided view is 'transphobic'.

but it's important that you also understand the reasoning behind the trans perspective before you reach a conclusion'

What is this "reasoning" beyond some people believe they're born in the wrong body" and how is that different from "some people believe that there is an almighty being directing our actions"?

The best way to talk to a teen (or any child beyond about 4) is to make clear what is fact and what is opinion.

‘Transwomen have male chromosomes’ is a fact, ‘trams women are men’ is an opinion, because it depends on a definition of man.

There is nothing wrong with having a strong opinion and justifying it with good argument, but presenting opinion as fact is, firstly, not that honest and, secondly, will lead someone to believe you are trying to foist your value set in them, something that typically does not end well with teenagers.

There is a huge generational divide on this issue.

We have seen transideologues doing all they can to ‘educate’ young people, to silence any alternative voices. Ursula sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander - I presume you support organisation like fairplay4women, transgender trend, and women’s place going into schools to present alternative information to Stonewall to enable young people to make up their own minds?

Transgender ideology is unfalsifiable pseudoscience. You're under no obligation to present other people's non-scientific beliefs as equally valid, just like you're under no obligation to say that X religious belief could be true, because it can't be proven otherwise. People who have faith can raise their children in their religion. Atheists can bring up their children to disbelieve in God, and gender atheists can do the same for "born in the wrong body".

There is a huge generational divide on this issue.

Why do you think that is? Could it be because children are being taught about only one side in school? And get the same message reinforced by everything they read online.

Eresh,

A decent parent (or teacher) presents both sides of an argument and then comes down on their favoured side.

For instance, as an agnostic person educated in science, I will present arguments (as in evidence) for the Big Bang to my children. I will also say I don’t see evidence for a God (at least not in the traditional sense). However, I will not categorically tell them that there is no god, as I do not know that for a fact. And, if they ask, I will also tell them why some do believe in a god, whilst saying I don’t agree with them, and why.

You may well believe that transgender ideology is unfalsifiable pseudoscience (which I actually personally agree with) but if you just forcibly say this to a rebellious teen, you will more than likely just make them believe in it even more.

Schools very heavily push the ‘be kind’ message these days and most teens believe that this means tolerating others’ beliefs. They don’t really buy (or at least the ones I have spoken to don’t) the trampling on women’s rights argument. The only argument I put to them which made them stop and think was women’s sport.

You may well believe that transgender ideology is unfalsifiable pseudoscience (which I actually personally agree with) but if you just forcibly say this to a rebellious teen, you will more than likely just make them believe in it even more.

Maybe so. But it's up to the parent how they approach it.

Those annoying parents instilling their own beliefs and morals into their children. Down with that sort of thing!

It does seem that we should be letting the internet instil values and beliefs into our kids doesn’t it?

I was having a good chat today on a walk with my 20 year old son about medication and the ethics of testing new drugs - not transgender related at all, but Covid related.

We got on to the lack of testing on children and then the default assumption of ‘man aged 18 to 35 with no health conditions’ as a test subject, and the possible complications for medicating women and children.

So when he started talking about the Covid tracing app and that it just needs ‘age and gender’, I asked if he meant sex, and we talked about whether it was better to risk missing crucial medical information by asking for gender, or risk offending people into not using an app by asking for actual sex. We had different opinions...

I did also mention to him that if our trans family member should get taken to hospital, it’s important (maybe lifesaving) that staff know she’s really female.

I know I can’t covert him to the view that gender is bollocks to be avoided. He’s too much a product of his generation for that.

We've also talked around how language changes and actually, how people don't really change much from one generation to another but society does. She sees the distinction between sex and gender and some of the reasons why it's important.
We've talked about how attitudes to sexuality has shifted over the last generation or so and kids growing up now now who are gay or lesbian should find it a bit easier than my peers did when I was her age.
My DD does find it curious that on the concept of 'gender identity' I draw a blank - it means nothing to me. She was surprised to find out how modern both a term and concept it is. I don't have a gender identity, I am a woman. That's it, to me everything else is preference or personality.
We agree that trans for many people is an extreme from of body modification to enable the outside of someone's body to reflect how they feel on the inside. Provided that person is an adult and capable of understanding what that will mean, then that is their choice.
She is naturally a fair and inclusive person, and we both agree that no-one should be made to feel afraid or lesser because of their sex or gender, but how to achieve that is complicated and not everyone will get the outcome they want.
Lockdown walks have given us lots of opportunity to debate a range of topics!

ursula I think that you are still looking at our efforts to prevent the erosion of women’s rights as being phobic. You say that you don’t agree with self identification. Do you then believe that with medical intervention a person can change sex? This is a simple yes or no? And if no, why is it poor parenting to ensure that your child also understands this?

Do you believe that males loose the benefits of male puberty with estogren? I happen to believe the evidence collected by Dr Hinton and others (due to lack of longitudinal evidence collected by the athletics organizations) that says that even with years of treatment a body still retains its advantage. Why do you believe that this is wrong to tell a teen?

At the same time you can tell them that everyone should be free to live the way they wish as long as they do not cause harm to others (including eroding another groups rights). And that they deserve their own rights to ensure their safety just like any other group based on ability, religion, and country of origin. Plus as a parent we should be already modeling inclusivity in how we deal with people on a personal level. Inclusivity except for where our rights are impacted.

I don't think young people even care whether you can change sex in many cases. They just don't have an issue sharing their spaces with 'genuine' trans people who want to be part of their group and 'one of the girls/boys'.

Of course young people don’t. I wouldn’t have cared about ‘equal opportunity’ in the workplace either til I experienced a toxic work environment. I also wouldn’t have cared about males playing sport with me because I already played sport with boys. However, I wasn’t an athlete who was training for competitions and losing to boys who had merely socially transitioned either.

As a young person, I had a very narrow view of how this issue would effect me. But it is not just about toilets. And it is not just about acceptance.

Teenage DD didn’t see why anyone would have a problem with male in female facilities until a friend who had been raped told her how scared she felt.

Experience of sex inequalities grows with age. I would vastly prefer that it didn’t.

They just don't have an issue sharing their spaces with 'genuine' trans people who want to be part of their group and 'one of the girls/boys'.

What is a 'genuine trans person'? Can you give a clear and unequivocal definition of such a person? Obviously you're not referring to the stonewall definition which includes (amongst many others) crossdressers.

How do you distinguish such a genuine trans person from a non genuine one in a real life situation?

Young people are very influence by peers and their experiences. They tend to listen to the anecdotal over the statistical.

Most will have experienced trans people as friendly and confused kids. They will have had a great inclusive time on ‘pride’ day with plenty of kind gentle ‘trans’ people.

You put the above together with the ‘kindness’ message, which is very trendy in schools now, and it is no wonder that they see the gender critical position as anachronistic.

They really don’t care about sharing bathrooms and a lot of proud young women have no time for positive discrimination, believing that they will succeed on merit (so a natal man becoming a women’s officer is not an issue to them). Sport on the other hand does resonate. I think a lot have no idea how many natal men are now winning at women’s sport.

If you talk to teenagers as if you are giving them the Ten Commandments, you will (rightfully, in my opinion) be handed your ass. If you ask them questions and explain how there are competing rights, and how to explore the issue further, you are more likely to (gradually) make them see your side of the argument.

@Ursula2001

How would you explain this to someone who isn't a believer? And why would you if you didn't believe it yourself?

I thought we were talking about providing all the facts to allow them to reach their own conclusion? That's why you would.

Yes. Parents need to provide the facts to counter the nonsense that they are being taught in school due to the influence of organisations like Stonewall.

www.transgendertrend.com/stonewall-autism-stonewall-schools-guidance/

Similarly, if children were being taught in school that the earth was flat, it would be the duty of the parents to make sure they are aware of the scientific view, but if they were being taught real science, there is no need for the parents to teach them flat earth theory.

If you ask them questions and explain how there are competing rights, and how to explore the issue further, you are more likely to (gradually) make them see your side of the argument.

Yes. And then they can process it all and make their own decisions knowing that it may change in the future.

But they need to be able to look at it critically and know what the basic facts and science is as a foundation.

If you talk to teenagers as if you are giving them the Ten Commandments, you will (rightfully, in my opinion) be handed your ass.

Are organisations like Stonewall and schools and teachers who promote their one sided view being 'handed their ass' by teenagers? They are only giving one view and calling anyone who disagrees with them a bigot.

If you ask them questions and explain how there are competing rights, and how to explore the issue further, you are more likely to (gradually) make them see your side of the argument.

I don't think anyone has suggested doing otherwise. The problem is breaking down the barrier of 'anyone who disagrees with what school / my friends / Stonewall has said is a bigot'. It's getting them to listen in the first place.