How do you talk to teens about misogyny and trans issues?

[Walkingtheplank]

I've just been talking with my 13 year old daughter this evening and our conversation ended up being about trans issues - her saying we have to be kind, transwomen are women, NAMALT, accusing me of being one of those radical feminists - and me talking about gender stereotyping, how that damages us, and my concerns about the removal of single-sex spaces.

She clearly thinks I'm an awful bigot. How do you discuss this issue with your children?

So schools are currently tying to bring children round to they way of thinking that TWAW and women and girls rights to boundaries and a clear definition of their sex are unimportant and we mums are not allowed to contradict that message with a clear opinion of our own that our daughters’ rights are important and noone can change sex? Are you serious?

What is wrong with teaching daughters the way we see it when others are strongly giving an opposite view?

Which of Babdoc's statements do you think are 'opinions' rather than facts?

Is an excellent question.

Please take the time to answer it 2007

Looking back Rufus, I can assume that Ursula and 2007 mean me. And from the outset I have said I have taken the ‘critical thinking’ path and said that we don’t agree on everything. So, I can then only assume that teaching a teen to look beyond ideas that are being pushed that may be premised on invalid science and statistics is wrong. That for a young woman to make up her own mind when she has all the facts and emotive reasoning in front of her is wrong.

To be fair sillydoggy in my daughter’s case the teacher gave the facts as ‘gay community’ and she used information given by her friends to draw that conclusion. However, the teacher would never have known until seeing an exam answer that she had completely misunderstood. Maybe also because the teacher doesn’t understand that these students are discussing this without having a balanced viewpoint.

Well exactly, Winesalot, girls having all the facts and thinking for themselves rather than parroting ‘be kind’ really just isnt on!

Thanks sillydoggy for that. I realized that that particular point missed the ‘because she should just go with the flow and not buck the system’ .

Winesalot,fair point. I was generalising as to schools on the basis of some of the worst examples where teachers are indoctrinating but the info they get from their friends is possibly even more influential.

Yes. With a girl who has found finding friends hard, it is very important.

Not specifically the OP, but others who have said they are trying to bring their children around to their way of thinking.

You seem to have misunderstood Millie. They want their children to engage their brains and do a bit of critical thinking. Schools and social media, along with their friends who repeat this stuff, are telling them what to think, and they're going along with it, without ever giving it any thought.

But first you have to overcome the first hurdle, which is that anyone who thinks for themselves and questions phrases like TWAW is a bigot.

So it's not about bringing their children round to their way of thinking so much as getting their children to do a bit of thinking for themselves, rather than just going along with what school/social media/their friends tell them.

Thank you for answering 2007

@OldCrone

Saying that you wish to bring someone around to your way of thinking is explicitly saying that you want them to think the same as you?

I'm all for a critical discussion but that's different to having a discussion with the intent of convincing someone to believe and think how you do

We all bring up our children thinking the way we do to a certain point put when they start to think for themselves , then we discuss - think about religion or lack of it, vegetarian or meat eater, Labour or conservative.

The difference with this ideology is that it is actively harmful rather than a matter of opinion. If you found your girls on a pro-ana site or watching extreme porn would you be saying we should let them make up their own minds? At 13 with strong messages coming from school and friends they need some guidance on keeping themselves and their rights safe and their boundaries protected.

Saying that you wish to bring someone around to your way of thinking is explicitly saying that you want them to think the same as you?

That looks like a statement, but has a question mark at the end. Are you asking me whether that's what I think?

I'm all for a critical discussion

That's good. How about having a chat with the "TWAW - no debate" crowd and persuading them that critical discussion is a good idea?

that's different to having a discussion with the intent of convincing someone to believe and think how you do

The whole purpose of a discussion between two or more people with opposing views is to try to convince people that your position is the right one to hold. Otherwise there'd be no point in having them, would there? But the way to do this is by having good, clear arguments to support your position, not shouting down the other side by calling them bigots and fascists.

@OldCrone

I actually believe that discussions with people who hold opposing views to you aren't always about getting the other to believe what you do/convince them that you're right, it's more about simply broadening everyone's way of thinking.

My DH's family all vote the 'opposite' way to me and we regularly have discussions about it, not with any intent to convince the other party of thinking differently, simply to gain a greater understanding of that other person and how they think.

Yes, Millie, I agree, listening to others' views is as important as stating your own. Do you think you can persuade the "TWAW - no debate" people to listen to our point of view?

I do think that Sillydoggy made a good point about this particular issue, though:

The difference with this ideology is that it is actively harmful rather than a matter of opinion. If you found your girls on a pro-ana site or watching extreme porn would you be saying we should let them make up their own minds?

This is why it's not just enough to say 'make up your own minds' to children about some issues. It's not like trying to persuade someone to vote labour instead of tory. But the first step is to be able to have a dialogue which doesn't involve one side shouting 'bigot' at the other, and refusing to listen.

I talk to my DD about this amongst the many things we discuss.
She's a bright kid and I can't make her think one thing or another. I can talk about my own opinions and experience and I can point her towards reputable sources of information. I can guide her but she will make up her own mind.

she came out with the usual one-liners and called me a radical feminist - not that she could define that, she just knew that to be a RF wasn't a good thing.

Depressing, but this isn't something new. Demonisation of older and wiser women has always been part of how patriarchy maintains its stranglehold. You say she's bright; she'll more than likely change her mind as she grows up and experiences a bit more of the world.

When I was a kid it was just plain old feminists who were made out to be man-hating witches. I suppose they have to be a bit more specific these days, now that "'feminism' = equality = progressive-sounding plus services dick = yay!!!" has become an accepted and widespread line of subconscious thinking.

(Off to actually read thread now.)

I have been lucky in this department. DSD (15) brought it up with me first, as a pervy lad in her class was claiming to be a girl and was being granted entry to the girls changing rooms and such and she had a huge problem with iti I did ask if it was just as he was pervy..but she said that just made it all the worse and she would be uncomfortable with any male..said shes vaguely uncomfortable with girls tbh but understands why that gets done, but definitely not with boys!

DSS (17) didn't seem to think much of it, or never mentioned it but his first proper venture into the waters was on behqalf of his sister. Got very very angry and nearly got himself excluded due to this perv in the girls room thing above^ One of his best mates now is trans, however, trans as in 'follows different stereotypes' rather than 'feels wrong body' (though claims to be a girl) so he doesn't really get it as he says how come hes not still a boy, just a boy with a different style to most other boys?! Which again, makes perfect sense really..

DSS (13) is just baffled by it all. Doesn't understand how on earth people can be getting so mixed up with male and female are such clear things, regardless of clothing styles, hair styles, likes, etc.

So I have been lucky thus far to not have to deal with a 'you are a terf!!!!!!' type teen yet.

@OldCrone

I couldn't agree more.

There is a time and place for a discussion where, as a parent, you have a duty to inform your children of varying sides of an argument and sometimes the topic means it would be beneficial for the child to see a particular point of view.

It's a difficult one; there is such a fine balance between allowing your children as they grow to figure out things for themselves, find their own views and make their own paths, whilst at the same time being guided by parents with the best intentions

Relate it to her simply using examples of girls her age. Good examples can be found in the Middle East / Asia - all countries where trans women are recognised as a third gender, for example, have horrid attitudes to women who are born female. Thai culture, for example, has started to welcome trans women into the working world in ways females never have been and never will. Indian schools still discriminate against females by insisting on white uniforms despite sanitary products being unavailable and so girls her age simply can’t go to school during their period. Trans women don’t have the same issues and usually have a childhood full of male privilege as a result.

One thing I have pointed out to my DD - this applies over many areas of life - is to watch out for name calling and whataboutery. Look behind the insults. Very few things in life are totally right and/or wrong.

Don't start with bathrooms as that is a harder conversation and requires an understanding and empathy of others who may have different views and experiences than them.

Think about starting with sport, as it is a matter of fact that males have an advantage over females in sport and they tend to have a strong view on fair play.

Move on to refuges as they may be able to understand the fear and issues for vulnerable women and children.

It's hard for girls that haven't yet built up a life time of caution and fear about enclosed spaces and males to get their head around issues with sharing bathrooms.

Interestingly I didn’t start with the toilets issue but my DD 13 did when she was talking to her friends. She stood in the bathroom and said ‘do you want boys in here?’ They were horrified - girls of this age are very precious of their privacy.

Well, I’m still waiting for 2007 to provide evidence of a third gamete apart from ova and sperm, to “prove” that sex isn’t binary!
But I’m just a retired doctor, what would I know about human biology... oh, wait.

[quote 2007Millie]@Ursula2001

I totally agree.

It's more a "I'll keep speaking to my daughter until she sees my point of view" rather than discussing/debating etc and understanding that someone can disagree

It's an emotive subject, there is no right or wrong, it is simply that people have different preferences as to what they want and what they deem acceptable

[/quote]
Reality isn't a point of view. Preferring fantasy to reality is certainly a point of view, while failing to discern the difference is a shockingly dysfunctional point of view.