Hungary votes to end legal recognition of transgender people

[Lamahaha]

nationalfile.com/hungary-votes-134-56-to-end-legal-recognition-of-trans-people/?fbclid=IwAR2XMJp7yzVMt9sh4QDOX69znivEA43eJhcSDVlm-zsMaikbANtXxnhd_uo

The amendment would recognize “sex at birth,” making it impossible to change ones gender throughout the course of their life.

On the proposed draft law, Human Rights Watch wrote:

The proposed amendment to the Registry Act would include a clarification regarding the word “nem,” which in Hungarian can mean both “sex” and “gender,” to specifically refer to the sex at birth (“szuletesi nem”) as “biological sex based on primary sex characteristics and chromosomes.” According to the draft bill, the birth sex, once recorded, cannot be amended.

It's the correct vote, but this government is otherwise authoritarian, neo-fascist, against minorities, pretty awful.

Apparently the TRA's are already planning a legal challenge in the European Court of Human Rights on the basis that the new law violates European human rights case law...

If you have no issue with sharing facilities with men

I have no issue sharing facilities with trans women.

A trans woman being anyone who says 'I'm a woman'.

Well ok.

Essentially your plan removes the concept of single sex facilities entirely so anyone can go anywhere.

If it's single gender facilities and you agree with stonewall definitions then you are excluding non binary, bigender etc people from using any facilities at all. Is that what you want? By stonewall definitions as well, this definition that you exclude contains most of the UK population.

I have no issue sharing facilities with trans women.

Yes, as she said. Other women don't want to share female spaces with males. You don't mind. They do.

What is it about the words "I identify as a woman" that you find so very convincing, personally?

Interesting that LemonadeAndDaisyChains seemed to balk at the idea of being forced to use men's facilities. All of a sudden they are 'entitled' to use women's spaces. Yet men are not a threat and it's no big deal if males use female only spaces.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains how would you feel if you were forced to use men's facilities?

In that case WhatOnFuckingEarth what do you think of cross-dressers being under the Stonewall definition of trans? They don't have gender dysphoria so would you class them as not being trans? What about male people who are perfectly content to keep male presentation while claiming a trans identity? One example would be Gregor Murray www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-48295000. Surely they don't have gender dysphoria since it would be triggered by conforming to masculine norms. Also, non-binary people often don't have gender dysphoria.

In fact, only a small proportion of the people who claim an identity that puts them under the trans umbrella actually have gender dysphoria. Would you say that all of these non-gender dysphoric trans identifying people are not genuine trans?

No, because I'm entitled to use the woman's spaces

So on the one hand we have someone who agrees that women's spaces should exist, as they are "entitled to use them" while on the other saying they shouldn't because men aren't a threat etc.

It's arrogantly reductive to reduce the argument to women feeling as though men are a threat in toilets.
It's mainly to do with privacy, dignity and fairness (eg sports). Safety of course does come into it but thankfully violence in our society is quite rare. Unfortunately spy cams and voyeurism are more common.

So would a woman who supports transwoman pre op in a female changing room be ok with their 8 year child/ granddaughter changing for a school swimming lesson if the transwoman was nude and had an errection full on show?

So on the one hand we have someone who agrees that women's spaces should exist, as they are "entitled to use them" while on the other saying they shouldn't because men aren't a threat etc.

Exactly. It's not an intelligent viewpoint.

Sorry, too stoopid to understand your last comment

You really don't like people disagreeing with you, do you?
Right to the insults if they refuse to agree with you.

So would a woman who supports transwoman pre op in a female changing room be ok with their 8 year child/ granddaughter changing for a school swimming lesson if the transwoman was nude and had an errection full on show?

I'm not sure what the answer to this hypothetical question directed at no one in particular would establish.

(Although there are only two possibilities, so you could explain )

Lemonade, if you are genuinely willing to learn about the area of risk assessment, and I hope this doesn't seem patronising as a lot of it can seem counter-intuitive, I would suggest you read up on it a bit first?

Just from your post
"You say you can't tell which males are a danger, so doesn't that mean we should view them all as a threat because as you say we can't tell which ones are nice?"

It looks like you've confused men as a class, with each individual man. Your statement is not correct. It is about management of potential risk.

Right to the insults if they refuse to agree with you.
Well, it's rather insulting to women to expect us to justify same sex spaces, and then argue about it.
Saying "not intelligent" is rather mild to be fair.

What didn't you understand about Mummmy's question, Goaty?
You seem entertained at your inability to answer; why, I wonder?

Not intelligent as I don't agree with you and it was quite a mild insult - what, I should get a stronger one?
Why does it always have to go personal, is it too hard to have a discussion without insult flinging if people refuse to bend to your way of thinking?

National File reported before the proposition:

The amendment would recognize “sex at birth,” making it impossible to change ones gender throughout the course of their life.

If sex does not equal gender, then in what way does the recording of sex on official documents, prevent a person from "changing their gender"? What is it they are actually prevented from doing?

What is it they are actually prevented from doing?
I admit I don't fully understand the article in the OP. Partly I suspect because of the language difference and the same word for sex and gender. Even in English we get confused between them and what 'gender' actually means.
I am completely against any specific rights being taken away from trans individuals that non trans individuals are allowed to hold, but I'm not entirely sure if that's what's happening in the OP, and a lot of posts in this thread haven't really addressed it due to derailing or assumptions. It looks like they're clarifying (or changing?) the word 'nem' to refer to bio sex only, but this (afaict) doesn't preclude anyone using any other word to describe their feeling of masculinity or femininity (or both, or neither). It also looks like they are saying sex recorded on birth certificates cannot be changed, which I am in favour of, as I am with any historical document unless there is genuine factual error.

Hi @Thisismytimetoshine, I understood the question!

Why not answer it then? Call it a thought experiment. Would it be a reasonable thing to expect?

Good evening @Ereshkigalangcleg,

OK, subject to my earlier post that this is an entirely pointless thought experiment!

My answer is: yes, the hypothetical woman is quite happy to see erect penises in changing rooms in front of children.

Thank you no further questions.

this is an entirely pointless thought experiment!

🙄

Stella Creasy had the same reaction when one of her constituents asked why her 11 year old daughter got a flash of an erection.

Normally flashing is a crime, but if it's in the women's rooms, "No problems here because trans..."

Surely you can keep the birth certificate original but still have a gender recognition certificate and be allowed to change names on legal documents?

In the UK, the gender recognition certificate replaces the birth certificate, the birth certificate still exists but it's actually illegal to ask to see it

Hungary are saying birth certificates shouldn't be replaced but driving licences etc can show a new name if needs be. Which actually is quite sensible.

No one should be able to erase their birth sex, name or location. Everyone should have the freedom to update documents to make status changes if needs be.

it’s just as possible for a woman to sexually assault another woman, possibly even more likely

Nah, mate, and I think you know that.