Can women identify sex better than men?

[pippapegga]

I've just finished watching DEVS on BBC with DH (brilliant series if anyone is looking for something to watch by the way).
Anyway, in relation to the character of Lyndon - before any pronouns were used I automatically was referring to her as she etc as I just naturally assumed that she was female. DH didn't know who I was referring to at first and we ended up a 'that's a woman' / 'no that's a young lad' discussion until I decided to just Google it. Now the character is meant to be a male, however the actor is a female. To me it was glaringly obvious that she is a female, although she clearly presented androgynously. But DH genuinely thought it was a man.
It got me wondering whether men just don't have the same instinctual ability to see the subtle differences and are more taken in my how people might 'present'. We see so frequently people really trying to convince us that men in dresses can truly 'pass', and now I'm starting to think perhaps some people can't actually see the difference.
Just for the record, DH is GC and totally supports the radfem movement in relation to gender and modern trans-issues, he's not some woke dude-bro.

This is neither a hard and fast rule nor politically correct in any way, shape or form ... but here we go:

In my experience, men are excellent judges of actual biological sex - you just have to frame the question in a way they understand.

And, sadly perhaps, the question seems to be "would you have sex with them?".

Perhaps, to women the more pertinent question is "do you feel safe?". Which obviously opens another two dozen cans of worms - which I'm going to ignore.

But when it comes to being able to tell biological sex, IME, men's instincts are no worse than women's. It's just that men, as a class, coming from a different perspective entirely, come to their answer from a totally different angle.

And, no, I'm not saying that all heterosexual men alive would realistically bang anything that looks like it may be marginally alive and have a >50% of having a double X chromosome. I'm saying that, in my own experience, this is the question that tends to trigger men's instincts in a way that makes them virtually indistinguishable from women's in terms of being able to determine bio sex.

I think I'm better at this than my husband, but I generally score really high on tests for facial recognition, whereas I think he is about average.

I'm not surprised that men and women score differently on this, as women also tend to be more language/interaction based, good at picking up facial expressions and more directed to them. I'd tend to think it's a brain/processing difference of some kind.

I think I can always tell. Sometimes you get people trying to have the "gotcha" moment posting photos of a transwomen and I still think you can tell from the photo but definitely would be able to tell in a face to face situation

I assumed all along the young person in dev was a boy, and one that was very young ie pre puberty.
So did I. I kept thinking "That kid is an amazing actor!" Then one of the other characters mentioned that Lyndon was 19; that was followed soon after by a scene when he was climbing over a fence and it was obvious that 'he' was female.

The character was originally written as being a skinheaded punk in his 20s, but the producer was blown away by the female actor's audition. I'm glad - and very surprised - that they kept him as male and didn't make him an enby.

I never notice trans people, DH does. He gets annoyed with me about it as he thinks I'm just pretending not to notice. He'll point people out on TV and real life and I'm oblivious. Mind you it never struck me he was mixed race till I saw his dad who was definitely black and even I had to notice that.

Actually I think I have some sort of problem I don't recognise people easily and in films I get very mixed up about who is who particularly men with beards who all look the same. I also get very confused about Dominic Raab and Matt Hancock who look virtually identifcal to me.

There's probably a name for it.

Actually I think I have some sort of problem I don't recognise people easily and in films I get very mixed up about who is who particularly men with beards who all look the same. I also get very confused about Dominic Raab and Matt Hancock who look virtually identifcal to me.There's probably a name for it.
Yes, it's called 'face blindness' or Prosopagnosia. I have it, I sometimes can't even recognise friends.

My children and others I’ve observed have certainly reacted quite differently to unknown people depending on if they were male or female

Interesting. My DD reacts less favourably to other women than she does men initially. It's hard to quantify exactly but it's like she feels that another woman would usurp the bond we have, whereas she doesn't have that 'link' with men.

That's not to say that she doesn't prefer her dad over me 99% of the time though 😂

Not just me then, I think that is a relief. Do you notice ethnicity? My husband was a bit gob smacked that I didn't notice he was brown until I saw his dad who was very dark and it suddenly dawned one me.

I used to worry when my kids were young that if they got lost I'd never be able to give a description of them and I wouldn't have a clue what they were wearing. When you see a crime show and someone says "I'll go and check their wardrobe and see what they are wearing." I always think I wouldn't even know what was missing from my wardrobe let alone someone else's.

I definitely assumed Lyndon was a female - never entered my head until I noticed someone say “he.”

I also thought there were one if not two males playing females in You. One of the college students and also one of the main woman’s friends in the First season...?

Wasn't there some film about a war photographer where the supporting male charachter was actually played by a lady?

Linda Hunt in the Year of Living Dangerously. She won an Oscar for her performance.

The character was originally written as being a skinheaded punk in his 20s, but the producer was blown away by the female actor's audition. I'm glad - and very surprised - that they kept him as male and didn't make him an enby.

I read the character as an 'enby' but was glad they didn't make an issue of it.

didn't make him an enby

They did have a bit of a speech when we first met Lyndon, but in general didn't make a big deal of it. I could appreciate that (and didn't notice anyone saying 'he' - I guess I missed it)

Linda Hunt in the Year of Living Dangerously. She won an Oscar for her performance.

As Billy - you'll also see her in CSI:Miami and as the designer in The Incredibles.

I loved that movie as a teenager (Sigourney Weaver - fantastic, plus Mel Gibson, who at the time was just a bit of a crush) - Billy was already a bit of an odd character - small, kinda magical, so their sex didn't really play a part - they were already strange, so you didn't notice the extra strangeness - it added to the character's general ambiguity.

I thought Lyndon was a young man.

I rarely notice any trans people.

I mean I thought Lyndon the character was a man and so was the actor

1forsorrow
Not just me then, I think that is a relief. Do you notice ethnicity?

I’m quite Faceblind & really struggle with ethnicity - obviously skin colour is clear but beyond that I’m pretty clueless.

I was going to say that as rather Faceblind I can still spot the correct sex of a person easily plus body proportions & movement are a dead giveaway (as a PP said I can also spot pregnancy from gait before it is usually shared). Doesn’t matter how much surgery a man has his pelvis will never move like a woman’s!

There was one of those "Only one in a gazillion people can get 10/10 in this quiz" quizzes on Facebook a while ago centred around identifying the sex of people in photos. There was a mix of trans, gender non conforming and gender conforming men and women.

I got 10/10 (or however many it was out of) without breaking a sweat as did many (mostly women) in the comments. It really wasn't as hard as they thought it was.

I do think women are generally more observant regarding sex differentiation. DH will often ask "is that a man or woman" when it seems obvious to me.

With regards to toddlers. I don't think it is as much that they can't differentiate male from female easily but that firstly the language around sex (pronouns, collquialisms, age differentiation) is complex and can take a while for them to master and secondly, they start to become aware of the performance of gender stereotypes and can be confused by "mismatching" presentations. They can still see sex though.

Had this with my DH, don't remember what it was but I said "that's a man" and he said "whaaaat?" and then "oh, you my be right." I was.
We discussed it and decided that women REALLY need to know if they are looking at a man or a woman-- it's evolutionary. Men don't face the same consequences so don't need such refined sex-identifying skills.

Yes I noticed the DEVS character was female straight away. And was very disappointed actually when they started referring to her as he because I was just thinking how nice it was to see a programme where the women didn't all have to be glamorous with long hair and make-up.

Children go through several stages in life regarding sex identification. I’ve looked for my notes but can’t find them (typical of me) but toddler to I think about 5 just assume long hair = girl etc but go on to know from 4-5 upwards they will become a man or a woman when they grow up. I’m abbreviating because I CANNOT FIND MY FUCKING NOTES which is annoying me 😂. I can spot a Male to female transwoman no problem. I’m a tiny 5 foot 2 woman slightly built who has been sexually assaulted so I think it’s self preservation. My husband is a 6 foot 3 inch bearded man who has MMA experience, he never notices probably because nobody presents a real threat to him so he moves through the world differently. He doesn’t do risk assessing on a daily basis like I do. He is shit scared of angry women though 😂 worked briefly as a bouncer when he was young and says he would always end up injured by drunk women kicking off, because he can’t bring himself to even grab a woman in case he hurts them. Basically he’d stand there getting his arse handed to him!

I think men are more inclined to try and fool themselves when it suits them. For women it's about survival so we don't have that luxury.

@DC1JackieReid here you go

medium.com/@katieja/young-children-reality-sex-and-gender-3421f4f165f1

But in the absence of other cues babies can tell (I don't have anything that says they can't tell when they are 4/5 - so I assume they'd still be able to tell from gait only but they would put more weight on hair/clothing if they clash).

medium.com/@katieja/but-how-can-you-tell-7901324d0919

Thank you @KatieAlcock I have piles of books and paperwork in no actual order.
Just remembered that we laugh in this house because my hamster can tell the difference between male/female humans. He loves me and snuggles and climbs up on me when he’s out running, but give the bristling fur and raised paws to husband or my dad 😂 he has a thing about running at DH but bottling it when he gets close enough to fight. My poor old dog could tell too. Rescue, terrified of men and would bark and growl but all wagging tail and licks for women (he was socialised to accept men as “friends”)

Most dogs can tell - they know each other's sex regardless of pink collar or not, and they can easily tell human sexes apart. And of course they can detect other interesting things like menstrual cycle.

Of course that's all IRL, by scent presumably. Humans are much more visual creatures so we rely more on visual cues.

My cat liked visitors and especially men. She would always sit on the men if she had a choice. Tart

I’m quite Faceblind & really struggle with ethnicity - obviously skin colour is clear but beyond that I’m pretty clueless.

I was going to say that as rather Faceblind I can still spot the correct sex of a person easily plus body proportions & movement are a dead giveaway (as a PP said I can also spot pregnancy from gait before it is usually shared). Doesn’t matter how much surgery a man has his pelvis will never move like a woman’s!

It's more than face blind for me then, I think I might just not be very observant or maybe not interested? Or perhaps I just live in a world of my own, I'm always getting moaned at for not acknowledging people driving past me who I know, apparently they can be waving out the window and shouting at me and I still don't notice. My excuse is I grew up in a vice area and learned early on not to "notice" passing cars as it was taken as an invitation to stop and discuss prices. Very confusing when you are 11 and don't know what they are talking about.

My cat doesn't like men either - she will generally hide from anyone male - even DS, as he turned 15, went from being ok to unacceptable!

The only single exception was a pet sitter whom I suspect had hidden Dreamies in his pockets We were all gob smacked when she casually walked up to him for a tickle the first time he came round to meet them. He was gay, so apparently my cat also has good gaydar and only hates hetero men