'Kiss on the cheek'- a crime or sexual assault

[ScrimpshawTheSecond]

I feel terrible for the woman here. She helped out a lorry driver who then kissed her on the cheek - and she is now terrified about corona virus.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-52699104

Men, if you're reading this - just fucking don't do it. Ever, let alone to an elderly woman during a viral pandemic.

I hope they catch the man and he understands what he's done.

I'm not a fan of the French bise, anyway, and neither are some French women.
Women tend to kiss both men and women, men kiss only women.
In my experience, it's often only an air kiss, but even so, it shows an inequality.

@DidoLamenting but how do you know there was no sexual intent? Were you there?

The woman was upset enough to contact the police about what happened; and the police certainly felt it met the standards to be investigated as sexual assault. Given that they have all the information, I think it’s terribly unhelpful for people who have no idea to be splitting hairs about whether it’s a sexual assault or not, particularly with the background on social media as there are scores of comments elsewhere basically saying she’s a hysterical loon.

For example there’s a huge difference between someone getting caught up in the moment and giving someone a quick peck on the cheek; and for example blocking someone in up against their car, and refusing to let them leave until they’ve allowed a kiss. Everyone is falling over themselves to assume it’s the former when in reality we have no idea where on the spectrum the incident fell.

A kiss on the cheek is in no way sexual. I also don't agree that it is not acceptable in the UK - maybe 50 years ago, certainly not now.

The woman is seventy, yeah? She reported it to the police.

Why the fuck are some people quibbling about it?

Do we support all women including the ones who are 70?

The woman was upset enough to contact the police about what happened; and the police certainly felt it met the standards to be investigated as sexual assault

The missing link here is whether the woman reported to the police because she was unhappy at the risk of being given Covid or whether she took exception to the kiss as a sexual assault.

I support all women, including those whose partners may have been accused of sexual assault after giving someone a thank you kiss.

@JoyceTempleSavage - yes I agree. Kissing a stranger in current circumstances is stupid and maybe illegal because of the risk of infection. Characterising it as sexual assault just confuses things.

@deydododatdodontdeydodat
My point was that if he kisses women and shakes hands with men then, according to the previous poster's logic, both would be sexual assault. However, to take it a step further, he could avoid the charge by kissing a man. That's not how the law works.

Hmm I can recall some kisses on the cheek that I found deeply unpleasant and where there was undoubtedly a sexual power dynamic at play. Of course they would have denied it and ridiculed me if I had challenged, but we both knew what was going on.

Yep, Floisme.

I wanted to add that I posted this not as a query whether or not it was sexual assualt, but the post title may have come across that way, so sorry. I just felt terrible for the woman involved, to have helped someone out and ended up terrorised by it.

I doubt I was sexual assault but it was certainly battery.

I don't think someone kissing an elderly lady on the cheek as a thank you has sexual connotations so don't see how it can be sexual assault. Kissing anyone during a pandemic is probably assault though?

I'm trying to straighten out my thoughts here.
I'm not sure why the lady being elderly means there were no sexual connotations.
I do agree that a kiss on the cheek isn't always sexual. But it most definitely can be. And when it is, there are very often only two people who know. Which of course is why they do it.

To be honest though, we shouldn't be having to discuss the minutiae of exactly what (or if a) named crime may or may not have been committed.

Just keep your lips to yourself unless you can be certain that a kiss will be well received. Not kissing someone wont cause harm so theres no need to do it to a stranger.

The idea that all social touching is assault is not particularly healthy. That's not to say that people should be forced somehow to shake hands, kiss their aunt, or whatever, but like other elements of culture it's not really possible to be totally individualist about social niceties and customs.

The idea that all touch is sexual comes out of a disordered sexual landscape, but disallowing it all as sexual is not a solution, it probably makes the problem worse. I'm also not convinced that it's as simple with kids as saying they can refuse any touch they want, without some sort of discussion of why we might feel uncomfortable, what kinds of touch are normal and what their meaning is, and so on. Good boundaries is in part about being able to see what is socially normal and what isn't. If everything is the same, it can become more difficult for the child to sort out things that are problematic - it's too subjective.

It's more difficult of course when people from different backgrounds and cultures interact, not everyone has the same expectations. Personally I prefer the bise or social hug to the handshake, people's clammy hands gross me out. But I live in a mainly handshake culture.

Women tend to kiss both men and women, men kiss only women.
In my experience, it's often only an air kiss, but even so, it shows an inequality.

I think it's a real mistake to say tat just because a social custom takes a different form for men and women, it's therefor sexist.

I think a lot of it is to do with the concept of intimacy 'bubbles' (I cant remember the correct term!) as well as social convention.

Handshakes are seen as less 'intimate' because you can maintain a distance whilst doing it, but they can soon turn uncomfortable if the other person holds on too long.

Cheek kissing requires a greater level of 'intimacy' which may be granted to friends but not a stranger.

Pertella

I think that makes sense, but different cultures seem to have some real differences in what people think of as too intimate though. Even things like how close you stand, or whether you sit next to someone or far away if you have a choice. I would say there is a sort of a range where your sense of what feels right depends a lot on what you are used to.

Forms of address are similar in a way - some cultures are very formal and some very casual. When someone moves from one culture to the other, they may feel uncomfortable whichever direction they are moving in.

The woman is seventy, yeah? She reported it to the police

What has her age got to do with anything?

Why the fuck are some people quibbling about it?

Heaven forfend that anyone should express the view that a kiss is automatically a sexual act.

Do we support all women including the ones who are 70?

No I don't support "all women" - regardless of what their age is.

For this to be a sexual assault there needs to be sexual intent on the part of the accused. It is his intent which matters. I don't think there is any poster who hasn't said this is an assault.

Several posters, quite rightly, have pointed out, that a kiss does not automatically imply sexual assault. The jury in the Gascoigne case found him not guilty because they believed there was no sexual intent.

It is not doing her any service at all to bring a case of sexual assault when he quite obviously will say it was just spontaneous thanks for helping him out when a case of assault, in the present circumstances, has a much better chance of sticking.

Her age being 70 is relevent in Corona virus times.

While we are supposed to stay 2m apart, kissing a stranger on the cheek is obviously off.

I would dispute the PPs who say it is normal in the UK to kiss a stranger on the cheek to say thanks, whatever sexes are involved.

I also used to work for a multinational company and colleagues from countries where 1, 2 or even 3 cheek kisses were the norm there was a pattern. The men and women would kiss the UK women. The the women would kiss the UK men. The men would shake hands with the UK men presumably to respect their cultural norms. So yes there are sexist divisions.

That aside. Kissing random people on the cheek to say thanks is not a thing in the UK IME, I live in London. Kissing random elderly women on the cheek right now is definitely off.

I notice the BBC piece also says haha what a ridiculous over reaction. Which annoyed me. So social distance unless it's an elderly woman in which case get up close?

I'm not a fan of the French bise, anyway, and neither are some French women.
Women tend to kiss both men and women, men kiss only women.

No, men faire la bise with each other too. Probably not as often, but I saw it reasonably often pre-confinement.

Surely you just don’t kiss someone unless it’s obvious they are comfortable with it. But in these times, when there’s a virus you really shouldn’t kiss anyone outside of your household, especially if they’re vulnerable.

I think for me it's that it's an unwanted touch. He kissed her and it was clearly not with her consent and made her feel uncomfortable. Her body her choice. It was a big assumption on his part that kissing her was acceptable and appropriate....
And then to layer that with the fact he should have been socially distancing makes it even worse.

I helped out a stranger a few months ago and he was so grateful and relieved that he asked if he could hug me.

I said yes.

Would he have asked to hug a man? Probably not. But I would have expected it to have elicited a warm handshake. Does that matter? Well, it depends, there are different cultural norms around interactions between men and women and I didn't regard it as disrespectful.

He had sought my consent and that was fine. Would have been a very different matter if he'd just done it.

Consent is everything when it comes to close physical contact with another person.