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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Surrogacy on the NHS

257 replies

Viewfromtheisland · 04/05/2020 11:48

Didn’t know it was allowed in Scotland but I’ve been educated by the Daily Record today....

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FannyCann · 14/05/2020 12:17

Here's what Lady Hale said.
Yep. Some women love being pregnant and gifting their child to whoever they have decided to help. So who cares about the poor exploited women. The (possibly) four women who will be exploited by that woman at the expense of the NHS.

  1. The reality is that there is a spectrum of surrogacy arrangements. At one end of the scale there are desperately poor women who are induced to sell one of the few things they have for sale, their wombs, and are often grossly exploited by the agents and middlemen who make serious profits from the large sums which desperate commissioning parents are prepared to pay. At the other end of the scale are altruistic women who enjoy being pregnant and are happy to make a gift of their child-bearing capacity to people who need it. It is no longer thought that women should not have the right to choose to use their bodies in this way. But it is thought that both they and the commissioning parents should be protected from exploitation and abuse. It is also thought that surrogacy arrangements, whether altruistic or commercial, should guard against any possibility that children are being bought and sold: see the Report of the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the sale and sexual exploitation of children, including child prostitution, child pornography and other child sexual abuse material (A/HRC/37/60, 15 January 2018).
FannyCann · 14/05/2020 12:22

She had the cheek to reference the Special Rapporteur, ignoring the fact that the SR specifically states that the birth mother must always be the legal mother for reasons of protecting the baby from being bought and sold.
And then decides obviously this poor woman needs to go to California so she can be assured of a watertight contract and legal parenthood at birth. HmmAngry

OhHolyJesus · 14/05/2020 13:02

46 reborn babies left stranded in Kiev.

www.unian.info/kyiv/coronavirus-lockdowns-leave-46-surrogacy-infants-stranded-in-kyiv-hotel-10995584.html

Lordfrontpaw · 14/05/2020 13:07

And if no one pays for their upkeep, and they become 'too old' to adopt (because I am sure tiny babies are more 'valuable'), what will become of these babies? It reminds me of puppy farms.

OhHolyJesus · 14/05/2020 14:10

I think even at puppy farms, the puppies get to stay with the mother for a few weeks and the UK passed Lucy's Law and became active last month and it means a puppy or kitten needs to be at least 8 weeks old before being taken from the mother.

We literally treat dogs better than we do humans.

SapatSea · 14/05/2020 14:43

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/may/14/surrogates-baby-coronavirus-lockdown-parents-surrogacy

Surrogates left to look after their babies or surrogacy agency workers having to take on baby duties as the commissioning parents can't get into the USA from China and Israel (in the article). US States that allow surrogacy seem to have become a global hotspot for "commissioning". The surrogate in the article works as a barista, poorer women as usual being used by richer folk from elsewhere.

It really worries me that we will end up with laws here similar to the U.S. when we should be looking to the Scandi model of banning.

SapatSea · 14/05/2020 14:48

Apologies just saw that this link was posted upthread.

BlueRaincoat1 · 14/05/2020 15:11

“It’s unprecedented for a surrogate to be looking after the baby,” says Rich Geisler, a Californian surrogacy lawyer. “We as an industry really try to avoid that. We want to avoid the possibility of the surrogate bonding with the child."

This comment from the Guardian article is horribly sad. Basically, we want to avoid the possibility of a baby bonding with its mother.

Lots of the babies talked about in this article aren't going to homes with mothers in any event. I have no issue at all in principle with a child having two dads, many gay men obviously make wonderful parents. But this seems really different, to create a child in an 'industry' , and for an express factor in that to be ensuring they never bond with their mother, or any 'mother' ... ah, it seems very very sad.

I struggle to see how its in the best interests of the child.

OhHolyJesus · 14/05/2020 15:11

Two your point Fanny on having multiple surrogate pregnancies happening simultaneously.

Here Jennifer Lahl notes the phrase "twinlings" or "triplings", where babies with the same genetic links are in two different womens wombs, developing at the same time. A combination of twin/sibling.

I think some would see this as a compromise, how neither woman's body is out under the stress of a multiple pregnancy but really I see this as another layer of exploitation. Because a commissioning parent/s wants a large family, like the woman who is off to the US to buy babies (in the Lady Hale post) and basically want twins then they can have more than one womb rented at any one time.

Imagine the travel involved if the women were in different locations, how could you quarantine and get back in time for another birth with a newborn if the timing mean they were born close together?

The level of entitlement is astounding.

OhHolyJesus · 14/05/2020 15:24

*to

OhHolyJesus · 14/05/2020 15:30

Richard Geisler osnthe founder of Fertility and Surrogacy Legal, a law firm in California which is like the Wild West as far as I can tell when it comes to surrogacy and selling babies and renting wombs.

www.fertilityandsurrogacylegal.com/faq/gestational-surrogacy-agreements/

Under their FAQs they have the following. I've looked at a few US law firms that deal with surrogacy and this is far from the worst I've seen so far:

While each family may have differing additional details to discuss, here are some common ones to consider:
▪ The plan for reimbursement by the intended parents to the surrogate throughout her pregnancy
▪ The handling of personal information
▪ The location of the birth
▪ What will happen if the pregnancy becomes high-risk
▪ If carrying multiples will require higher compensation
▪ Perspectives on abortion and selective reduction

tiktok · 14/05/2020 17:29

"BioTexCom claims to guarantee the safety of the babies born in the center with a team of babysitters with “a medical education”. Publico reports that the staff have been in lockdown with the babies for 30 days, unable to see their own families."

That's from the link below. I wonder how many senior staffers in 'the industry' volunteered to give up their family life to stay in lockdown? Or did the poorly paid babysitters have to do it? And do we think the babysitters might be predominantly female?

In my extended family, there are two siblings, born five months apart. Their parents are very rich and they are from a first world country (not the UK). An agency was contracted to find two women to become pregnant by AI, with their own eggs (female of the couple infertile, male fertile). The second woman was their insurance policy in case something went wrong. I don't know the parents, but I do know other members of the family and they all think it's all wonderful.

Lordfrontpaw · 14/05/2020 17:33

Babies from BioTexCom. Jesus it sounds like a flippin Sci Fi film.

OhHolyJesus · 14/05/2020 17:38

That makes me feel a bit sick tiktok if I'm honest.

Insurance policy? Christ.

So they are half sibling and will probably have a number of other half siblings from the egg donor mother. Three women were involved in that.

It's all very Handmaids tale. If I were you I'd be sending copies round to the family members who think it's wonderful. I hope the children are raised knowing how they came to be.

tiktok · 14/05/2020 17:44

They are distant relatives, and I have just kept my views to myself when I have seen anyone who is more closely related to them than me. I've no desire to put these kids' lives under any scrutiny.

I've no idea what they will be told. It'll be something along the lines of two very lovely, kind ladies wanted to make mummy and daddy very happy. Hmm

It cost a massive amount of money, but they are, as I say, very wealthy.

JiggeryWokery · 14/05/2020 19:06

What struck me about the Guardian article about babies being born in the US, was that they had no documentation and they were basically stateless. Therefore it was impossible for the commissioning parents to arrange health insurance for them. It seems totally reckless and unethical that the surrogacy agency is allowed to basically 'produce' babies to order without arranging some sort of interim healthcare cover for them until such time as the commissioning parents can take over the responsibility. There could be any number of reasons why CPs from overseas might experience a delay in getting the baby home, even outside of the current pandemic.

Basically the welfare of the baby is at the bottom of the list of priorities.

OhHolyJesus · 14/05/2020 19:40

I confess I don't know what the rules are in the US on the registration of births, maybe it varies state to state? Under UK law you have 6 weeks don't you, but I don't know what happens if you don't do it by then, do social services come round?

It would be a violation of the Convention for the Rights of the Child as every child has the right to be registered but then surrogacy could also be seen to violate the other rights:

*Article 7
*

  1. The child shall be registered immediately after birth and shall have the right from birth to a name, the right to acquire a nationality and. as far as possible, the right to know and be cared for by his or her parents.
FannyCann · 14/05/2020 19:52

It's an excellent point JiggeryWokery

I was also struck by the business of Katie Faust, a 26-year-old surrogacy case worker, driving across the states to collect the baby and look after her. Any safeguarding checks etc at all here? What qualifications does she have for caring for a newborn apart from being a woman?

I read another article about similar CV related problems in Canada and they seemed to be taking the view that the babies had to be formally fostered. The surrogate mothers couldn't care for them as they aren't the legal mothers. I suppose they could be the nanny?

I wonder if there are any internationally commissioned babies awaiting collection here in the UK? The surrogate mother will be the LEGAL MOTHER (Ov9) so conveniently there wouldn't be a problem with her taking the baby home although as OhHolyJesus says, they would have to register the birth in six weeks. I'm pretty sure the CPs have to apply for Parental Order in six months and the baby should already be resident with them so potentially there could be problems further down the line apart from the little problem of removing the baby from the mother it has bonded with.

If the Law Commission proposals of making the CPs the legal parents from birth were in place there would definitely be a problem with placement, I don't think the surrogate mother would be allowed to take the baby home and SS would have to organise foster care.

FannyCann · 14/05/2020 21:18

Oh and Katie Faust does have three children of her own. I forgot that. So that's alright then. Hmm

JiggeryWokery · 14/05/2020 21:46

The Law Commission are currently consulting on the introduction of commercial surrogacy in the UK, is that right? Are they going to be looking at the US model as an example of best practice?

I just found this on the Law Commission website, regarding issues relevant to the consultation:

"There is potential uncertainty caused by surrogates (and sometimes their husbands) being entered as parent(s) on the birth certificate of a child born as the result of a surrogacy arrangement. Currently, parental orders can only be obtained after the birth of the child and upon an application to court by the intended parents. In one case, the effect of the law “was that the children were marooned stateless and parentless”

The Covid-19 situation and the plight of the poor 'unclaimed' babies certainly brings home the urgency of this issue.

CaliforniaMountainSnake · 14/05/2020 21:49

You don't actually have to register babies at the moment in the UK.

OhHolyJesus · 14/05/2020 22:23

Good point Jiggery. I understood that the reason why parental responsibly applies to the surrogate mother's husband as well was as a preventative measure to stop husbands exploiting their wives for their reproductive ability to make babies.

Essentially preventing a husband setting up a baby factory as a cottage industry. If they have legal responsibility they might not be so keen!

The law commission certainly wouldn't frame is as introducing commercial surrogacy but you have to read between the lines of the 183 questions to see where the "new pathway" is leading. The Nordic Model Now response was useful for this. It certainly wasn't designed to be an easy read and as they didn't consult with any women's groups you can understand why they came from the starting point that they did. I can't imagine why all the family lawyers they spoke to think surrogacy laws need to be reformed and made to be more relaxed..cough cough

££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££

FannyCann · 14/05/2020 23:40

Sad news if another maternal death of a surrogate mother in the USA, in 2017 but I hadn't heard about it before.

The details are heartbreaking.

ThanksThanksThanks to Crystal.

https://us7.campaign-archive.com/?e=63ad6d7206&u=854a02957234313d134e9865d&id=7c0dc77e2e

FannyCann · 14/05/2020 23:42

In Memory of Lost Moms
by Kallie Fell, Research Associate
Mother’s Day is a special time to pay tribute to that beautiful soul that gives life.

I am blessed to have three strong mothers in my life: the beautiful woman that gave birth to me, my fierce and fiery sister (whom often acts as my second mother), and my sweet mother-in-love. All three of these women are dear to my heart! I hope that you had the opportunity to celebrate all of the mother’s in your life this week.
Unfortunately, for some, Mother’s Day can be a day of mourning. Perhaps this year you celebrated a life that is no longer with us on earth. If so, my heart goes out to you. This year, Aaron and his two sons had to celebrate their second Mother’s Day without their beloved Crystal. Crystal passed away unexpectedly on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 from complications related to premature labor from a surrogacy pregnancy.

We learned about Crystal’s death through another surrogate mother:
“Crystal Wilhite was a surrogate in my surrogacy therapy group hosted by the Center for Surrogate Parenting (CPS). She passed away in February 2017 from complications after going into preterm labor for a surrogate pregnancy. Following a blood transfusion, she received after bleeding, she was discharged from the hospital earlier than she wanted, as she was still not feeling 100%, and then died at home from an embolism or blood clot.
I have to speak about this anonymously because I learned about Crystal’s death and the circumstances surrounding it at one of the CPS group therapy meetings, and from emails sent around by CPS to all of us surrogates used by them. CPS made it very clear that we were not allowed to publicly speak about Crystal’s death, and so I fear that CSPone of the biggest surrogate agencies in California will sue me if I speak publicly and identify myself.”
It is not surprising to hear that Crystal was sent home early after giving birth prematurely. A surrogate pregnancy, with the additional risk of premature birth, is very expensive causing intended parents worry over being responsible for additional medical bills. Also, the fertility agency, worried about bottom line success stories, wants women to be sent home as soon as possible so that they can report uncomplicated pregnancies to potential intended parents.
Prioritizing money saved and profits made is all too common in surrogacy arrangements. Melissa Cook, a commercial gestational surrogate in California was carrying triplets and asked by the intended father to reduce her pregnancy or terminate her pregnancy due to the high costs of her high-risk pregnancy. Toni Bare, a commercial gestational surrogate in Iowa was told by the intended mother, she had to seek permission to go to the doctor, because they want to incur more expenses. Jessica Allen, a commercial gestational surrogate, who accidentally gave birth to her OWN child, along with a Chinese baby, was told she would have to pay money back to the Chinese intended parents , who paid for, two babies but only got one, and also to pay money back to the agency who cared for her child for two months until returning her baby. It’s all about the money and not the health and well-being of women and children.

FannyCann · 14/05/2020 23:45

Just two days before her death, Crystal posted a photo on her Facebook page of her hand and arm lying in a hospital bed, hooked up to a blood transfusion. Her caption reads, “Never been on the receiving end before…#ThankYouForDonating”.
A family friend wrote the day after Crystal died, “How is it possible? My friend’s daughter Crystal passed away yesterday . . . Crystal was a surrogate mother for someone else and something went wrong with the pregnancy. She died doing something for someone else. My heart is broken.”
The fertility industry and the fertility doctors know the real risks of a surrogate pregnancy, but they were willing to risk Crystal’s life, and silence those who would speak out, in order to protect their bottom line. May we remember Crystal’s family this week. May we remember all of the lives that have been exploited by the surrogacy industry.
In honor of the mothers lost during surrogacy arrangements, would you sign our petition too #StopSurrogacyNoww? _
The CBC has also produced a 45-minute documentary showing how exploitive the fertility industry, or as we like to say #BigFertilityy, really is. This documentary tells the story of Kelly Martinez. Kelly was threatened with financial ruin after nearly dying during her third surrogacy. But each of her surrogacy journeys had a price to pay. Kelly’s story exemplifies everything that is wrong with the distorted version of fertility medicine that is Big Fertility. It truly is all about the money. You can view this film free on Amazon Primee.
Are you interested in learning more about surrogacy? Our website has many different resources including these two fact sheets:
3 Things You Should Know About Surrogacyy_
Telling the Truth About Surrogacy in the USS_

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