Surrogacy on the NHS

[Viewfromtheisland]

Didn’t know it was allowed in Scotland but I’ve been educated by the Daily Record today....

They define themselves as kind people goihggng on a journey to make s huge difference

How the fuck would you know? You don't, you cannot even imagine what life is like for some of those women.

Did you even read the article @0v9c99f9g9d939d9f9g9h8h ?

Every year, thousands of prospective parents from all over the world travel to countries such as Ukraine, Canada, Georgia and the US to carry out surrogacies.

Why do you think thousands of women, mostly in poor countries, are signing up to carry babies for international baby buyers from across the world?

You think they are all "kind people goihggng on a journey to make s huge difference."?

Why are there no kind rich women cheerfully going on a journey to make a huge difference? They could offer their services for free. It would make a huge difference for people who can't otherwise afford to embark on surrogacy.

Your ignorance is embarrassing.

“She is physically okay, but mentally a mess,”

Why do you think that may be @0v9c99f9g9d939d9f9g9h8h ?

These are not women who struggle to have babies

And yet the woman who is a mess mentally has previously given birth prematurely.

Personally, in the unlikely event I was looking for a kind woman to do me a huge favour I would rule out someone who had previously given birth prematurely. I wonder what the NICU facilities are like in the Ukraine and how much they cost.

TBH Ov9 you would have that opinion as you have a surrogate child, a child through surrogacy.

If you had an egg donated to make your son do you know that the egg donor is ok, both mentally and physically? Does she remain fertile? Does she have reproductive cancer?

If you had a surrogate mother who you paid to grow and give birth to your child, is she ok, are you still in touch? Family member, friend or stranger? Uk or abroad? Is she ok, did she suffer any incontinence, birth injures or mental problems (I'm not sure she would tell you so that's maybe an unfair question, she might want to uphold the image of being generous and completely unaffected but might be in private counselling, if she can afford it).

Your boy might be a happy little person on a day to day basis but if he came from donor sperm or a donor egg he might one day fall in love with a half sibling and not be able to have a family because of the close relationship. However, he might be in a same-sex relationship and be all set up to have a family using a woman's body as he came into the world that way so has learnt that women, or some women, are there to provide a service.

Have you told him or will you tell him about the circumstances his birth?

You may think all the above is too personal, but your position on this is personal as you have personally benefited from surrogacy. You are entitled to your own opinion but your experience and the experience of the women involved in the birth of your child are not necessarily the experience of all women involved in surrogacy.

By comparison we do not legislate for the 'happy hookers', we legislate against sexual trafficking/slavery.

Being able to sell your reproductive system or your ability to procreate is not for you, or I as individuals, to decide but it is a fact that most countries have banned either commercial surrogacy or outlawed surrogacy entirely.

Pro surrogacy people, including the Law Commission, say the Uk law is outdated because people should be allowed to buy babies and why can't women use their wombs to make money. Personally I think the current and proposed laws in the Uk are way behind other countries. They have it right and we have it wrong.

More news from the Ukraine baby factory.

4w.pub/excess-babies/

They define themselves as kind people goihggng on a journey to make s huge difference

I know an American woman who has surrogated twice. She did it because she has a disabled child to care for and needed the extra money. I don't know how she feels about her choice. But I think it's disgusting that she has to sell her body to provide for her existing children.
Would it be kind and giving if she has gone on the game, or a sad reflection of a society that is letting down the most in need.

These are not women who struggle to have babies

This says a lot about the poster. They can have babies I can't, so give me one of yours.

I get pregnant easily. In fact I'm unintentionally pregnant right now. It doesn't mean infertile woman have a right to my body. And even for someone fertile, pregnancy is not easy. It's 9 months of sacrifice. Its impacting to your fitness your health. I've had 2 labours already but I'm still nervous about what could happen in the third. No pregnancy is without risk and anyone who thinks it is is blinded by want (want for baby, want for money) or very nieve.

Fanny - I saw that too (on twitter) and the report of all the babies (99% girls) murdered and/or dumped in a rubbish dump in Pakistan.

What a fucking world.

If they don't get killed in the womb Lord

By contrast, Barrie Drewitt Barlow had the two boys killed in the womb by fatal injection to the heart, Barrie wanted another princess and Barrie always gets what he wants.

What what whaaaat? Monster. Not fit to have a child. What if the girls were ‘ugly’ or gay or a tomboy? What would she do? Drown them?

Oh my god. Googled and I have come across that person before - didn’t he end up with his daughters (?) ex boyfriend? What a piece of work.

Surrogates left holding the baby

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/may/14/surrogates-baby-coronavirus-lockdown-parents-surrogacy

Some selected quotes:

Spending nearly three months raising a baby she has given birth to, but who she is not biologically related to and will be giving back to his parents eventually, is emotionally wearing. “I love having the baby snuggles,” says Martin, “but it’s definitely hard knowing that he is not mine. I love him, but I know that he has to go back to his own parents eventually.”

Surrogates and surrogacy agencies are scrambling to look after babies themselves. “It’s unprecedented for a surrogate to be looking after the baby,” says Rich Geisler, a Californian surrogacy lawyer. “We as an industry really try to avoid that. We want to avoid the possibility of the surrogate bonding with the child.”

To highlight a word in that paragraph: industry.

“It will be hard to give him back, because I’ll miss him,” Martin says. “But I know he’s not mine, and that I have to give him up, which is totally OK with me.” She pauses. “But there’s definitely a bit of attachment there,” Martin says. “I care for him. When you love on a baby, you love on a baby.”

“I never anticipated something of this nature happening,” says Katie Faust, a 26-year-old surrogacy case worker from Tampa Bay. Really? A pandemic couldn’t be predicted but this scenario certainly could be.

Faust, her husband, and three children flew to California to collect the baby, rented a car, then drove for five days back to Florida

Yes, they went to California, were allowed to just pick up a baby who wasn’t theirs in any way and just drive across the country.

“For Steven’s sake it would be nice for him to bond with his parents instead of with me,” Martin says. “Those first three months of his life are instrumental in the bonding process for the baby.”

YOU FUCKING THINK SO?! I would laugh at the irony if it wasn’t so fucking tragic.

Anyone who reads that article and doesn’t think surrogacy is a human tragedy and criminal act all rolled into one can get to fuck several times over. All that the Covid pandemic has done is concentrate every single problem with surrogacy into one small time period.

Those poor babies. 😥

Or this one NotBad

https://4w.pub/excess-babies/

Speaking of industry, count how many times she says 'intended parents' or 'clients' vs how many times she says 'surrogate' (not surrogate mother)

https://www.facebook.com/1142853142513655/posts/1961503747315253/?vh=e&d=n

Lord Barrie Drewitt Barlow is possibly the worst person you could choose to be involved in surrogacy. His daughter has openly stated how, despite her healthy reproductive system, she will likely have surrogate arrangements as giving birth is so yucky. Or words to that effect.

I'm unclear if he was advised to reduced the triplets to singleton for safety but as he mentioned sex selection (not gender ) and his need for a 'princess' to balance out his household I assume the two boy babies for the fatal injection to the heart, via the woman who is carrying them, if we can remember her for a moment. I wonder about her mental state knowing her body is either reabsorbing the dead foetuses or they will remain and be naturally expelled by her body or might need to be removed. What a lovely thought for the ever-generous, all-giving woman, the woman who is simply doing this out of the goodness of her own heart and not for cold hard cash.

PS he had 3 embryos put in in the first place and appeared thrilled in international media when he found out she was pregnant with triplets. Was she at risk of death if all three remained?

In that Two Dads video the woman who owns and runs the matching agency has temporary custody of newborns, so the surrogate mother, not having any parental rights or responsibilities has simply gone home to her boosted bank account.

The baby/babies remain in the care of the hospital/midwives but not one is there to actually care for them as parents.

It reminds me of an orphanage. Nameless, faceless carers (usually women) caring for the defenceless until some wealthy couple swoop in and whisk them off, only the damage has already been done as they have effectively been abandoned by their mother and the care they receive, whilst loving and gentle, is functional.

More Two Dads referring to the two gay men who are "pregnant"...what did I miss, when could men have babies?

About 14 mins in.

www.facebook.com/twodads.u.k/videos/547592232606788/?vh=e

Lord there is some interesting information about the Drewitt Barlows on this thread.

Anyone used the British Surrogacy Centre or advice on surrogacy in the UK?* http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/surrogacy/2592507--Anyone-used-the-British-Surrogacy-Centre-or-advice-on-surrogacy-in-the-UK

The foreign parents, unable to travel to Ukraine now may refuse to collect the child after they are months old, claiming they are “older” than they had desired

What the actual fuck. I guess I shouldn't expect anything less of people that will purchase a baby from a baby factory.

I know California babies get older, every day, every minute of every day, who'd thunk it?

They want them brand new, pure, undamaged. It's like they want to 'imprint' on the child like wolves. It's rare, I would say unheard of, for a surrogate mother to breastfeed, despite it being the best starts you can give a child.

In the US a contract can state that the mother has to pump, so the usefulness of her body remains because of her biology but the bond between her and her child must never be allowed to develop.

“We as an industry really try to avoid that. We want to avoid the possibility of the surrogate bonding with the child.”

I read this earlier and found it chilling. Nothing at all in that article about the ethics of all this. Just so evil. Treating women as bodies for hire and children as commercial products.

OhHolyJesus it depends a bit on the stage of pregnancy that the feral reduction is done. If it is later on obviously the baby is bigger and won't fully absorb. This can result in a fetus papyraceous - a mummified fetus effectively - which will be expelled with the baby. I have no idea of relevant laws in the USA but this happened to a patient of mine who was pregnant with twins and one was found to be anencephalic at her 20 week scan. When the baby was born, there was also the remaining fetus. They had to register it as a still birth and have a funeral which was very upsetting for them.

God Fanny that's horrific. Obviously it can happen naturally. I think the surrogate mother for BDB is quite far past that point. In The Unexpected Mother which I've just finished ready it was done quite late to her triplets and she was told the third baby had been reabsorbed but actually it came out of her when she was on the loo, home alone (with the twins as the commissioning parents had cancelled their order for twins), before she collected her boys from school.

In fact the CPs cared for Susan Ring's sons after the triplet was killed (the matching agents has promised to help but were busy) and encouraged her to abort the remaining two.

I have also been a deliveries with a twin in that situation Fanny. The parents thought they’d want photos as a family before the body was taken away, but they soon realised they didn’t really want that ☹️.

The thing is, it doesn’t seem to matter how many horror stories we post, how many times we point out the inevitable ethical disasters, how many examples of trauma, there still seems to be people and posters who will defend such a practice to the hilt.

They seem to have no shame.

Where there’s money to be made... it’s not about couples desperately trying to conceive any more, it’s supply and demand. I read recently if a US tv host who had a surrogate to have his baby (he is gay, rich). He just wanted a baby.

For god sake - I really want a dog but realise that it’s not practical.

It is supply and demand Lord

I'm reading a book "outsourcing the womb" and basically because women for access to abortion, unwanted babies weren't being born so adoptions went down. That's where traditional surrogacy came in and started to increase.

The history is actually fascinating and goes back to the bible.

It's sickening isn't it NotBadConsidering

I am so angry with governments and people like the Law Commissioners who think this is all fine. Bloody Lady Hale and her disgraceful comments on the court case about the woman who wants to go to California four babies. I wonder if that woman is planning on getting four surrogate mothers pregnant at the same time, or maybe two sets of twins? The possibilities are endless. It's like ordering a BOGOF on your online shop.

🙇‍♀️🤬This is me banging my head on my desk then swearing. There is no emoji for what I feel.