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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

These Are Not Our Crimes

104 replies

EmpressLangClegInChair · 01/05/2020 09:00

TheUterati, who was one of the first FWR women to be banned under the New Rules, has made a video listing over 70 male prisoners who claim to be women and their crimes. It's not an easy watch but it's a very important one.

OP posts:
OldCrone · 05/05/2020 15:40

Then where do they draw the line?

This has always been the problem since it was decided that a man could become a woman in the eyes of the law.

The GRA2004 was passed in order that a man who had made all the body modifications possible to make his body resemble that of a woman could marry his male partner. No doubt homophobia amongst many MPs was responsible for this route being taken rather than the alternative of legalising same-sex marriage.

Obviously, although this one person was responsible for taking their case to the ECHR, the law would have to work for others who wanted to take the same route, and it was decided at the outset that genital surgery, or other physical modifications, wouldn't be a requirement for changing sex in legal terms.

Since there was no clear line drawn, we are now in the situation where a rapist can become legally female, and a woman can become legally male and a couple of weeks later become pregnant via IVF.

There is only one sensible place to draw the line, and that is that nobody can change sex. Live how you want, but biology is real. Repeal the GRA.

RabidChinchilla · 05/05/2020 23:48

Then where do they draw the line? You can’t realistically say that the nice, non-threatening ones should be accepted as women and the nasty ones shouldn’t.

Well, that’s kind of what happens in many cases. Even Julie Bindel apparently uses female pronouns for the transwomen she’s friends with.

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 05/05/2020 23:57

There are undoubtedly plenty of young women who support trans people because they want to be inclusive and likely because they know young trans individuals personally (as opposed to the 'middle aged perverts with AGP' stereotype we usually see on here). Whether or not they're misguided, I doubt they hate women.

If that were the case, they'd change their tune when confronted with the reality of Karen White. They don't.

RabidChinchilla · 06/05/2020 00:03

Which examples are we talking about?

EmpressLangClegInChair · 06/05/2020 07:52

Lisa Nandy, Rebecca Long Bailey, Dawn Butler, Ruth Hunt and Linda Riley of Diva magazine are all good examples of women who put the likes of Karen White first.

OP posts:
TheProdigalKittensReturn · 06/05/2020 08:01

I suppose the generous* interpretation would be that it's been pointed out to them that not accepting the Karen White's would be dishonest and ideologically inconsistent.

*It's more generous as an assumption than "this person is stupid and cowardly".

HorseRadishFemish · 06/05/2020 08:21

rabidchinchilla do you agree that the prisoner who goes by the name karen white is a woman?

Simple enough question.

Apollo440 · 06/05/2020 09:09

Don't expect an answer. You can't answer it without the whole TWAW unravelling.

RabidChinchilla · 06/05/2020 09:12

No, I don’t think Karen White is a woman and I’ve never claimed any transwoman is. What I said is that I’d probably not have a problem with calling a TW ‘she’ if I had to work with one.

OldCrone · 06/05/2020 09:42

There are undoubtedly plenty of young women who support trans people because they want to be inclusive and likely because they know young trans individuals personally (as opposed to the 'middle aged perverts with AGP' stereotype we usually see on here).

These young trans people and 'trans kids' are being used as a human shield for the sexually driven older men. I posted a link a few times to a video of one of these older male TRAs spelling this out, but it's been taken down now.

His comment about 'trans kids' was that they take the 'sex' out of transgenderism, because obviously the children aren't driven by the same sexual motives as the middle aged males. By suggesting that the children are somehow the same as the middle aged males makes it harder to criticise the late transitioning adults, because there is also implied criticism of the children. Conversely, unquestioning acceptance of 'trans kids' implies that the middle aged male transitioners should also be accepted without question.

To see how this plays out in practice, see Lisa Nandy when she is asked about men in women's prisons, and she immediately starts talking about the 'trans child' in her constituency.

Datun · 06/05/2020 09:48

No, I don’t think Karen White is a woman and I’ve never claimed any transwoman is. What I said is that I’d probably not have a problem with calling a TW ‘she’ if I had to work with one.

But not if the transwoman you were working with was Karen White?

HorseRadishFemish · 06/05/2020 10:01

Thank you for answering rabidchinchilla.

Apollo440 · 06/05/2020 10:20

Thank you for answering too. So now we have fake/bad transwomen. So how does that sit with self id?
Oh and I don't think many have a problem with using pronouns as a matter of courtesy. Just a problem with compulsion.

EmpressLangClegInChair · 06/05/2020 10:55

Oh and I don't think many have a problem with using pronouns as a matter of courtesy. Just a problem with compulsion.

I don't think I could, you know. I used to automatically, but now I think I'd choke on it. The closest I could get would be avoiding pronoun use altogether.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 06/05/2020 11:36

Oh and I don't think many have a problem with using pronouns as a matter of courtesy. Just a problem with compulsion.

Scots Gov draft legislation uses other people's use of mis-sexed pronouns as part of the (limited) evidence that a male is to be considered both a woman & female. As lobbied for by Scottish Trans Alliance (James Morton)

Scottish Legal
Blog: Shifting sands on the definition of ‘woman’ in Scots law
Published 21 April 2020
by Dr Kath Murray, Lisa Mackenzie and Lucy Hunter Blackburn

'Blog: Shifting sands on the definition of ‘woman’ in Scots law'
(extract)
"This expanded definition of ‘woman’ was introduced at stage 2 of the legislative process, following representations from the Scottish Trans Alliance. It brings within scope some people who have not changed their legal sex to ‘female’ using a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC), and excludes some people who remain female in law (those transitioning to live as men, without a GRC).

In 2019 the Scottish government consulted on the implementation of the act. The consultation document included draft guidance, which set out examples of acceptable ‘evidence that the person was continuously living as a woman’, all of which are linguistic in nature:

“always using female pronouns; using a female name on official documents such as a driving licence or passport, or on utility bills or bank accounts; describing themselves and being described by others in written or other communication using female language.” (continues)

Despite its earlier interest in consistency with the Equality Act 2010, the concerns raised about the definitions used in the GRPB Act 2018 have not caused the Scottish government to pause and the act will come fully into force at the end of next month. The planned guidance does not appear to have been issued yet, and the Scottish government has not commented on the points made in the consultation analysis."
www.scottishlegal.com/article/blog-shifting-sands-on-the-definition-of-woman-in-scots-law

thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3829786-James-Morton-scottish-trans-alliance-quote

R0wantrees · 06/05/2020 11:41

No, I don’t think Karen White is a woman and I’ve never claimed any transwoman is. What I said is that I’d probably not have a problem with calling a TW ‘she’ if I had to work with one.

Many of the male offenders in OP video by TheUterati, 'These Are Not Our Crimes' will have had jobs &/or will have jobs on their release.

You would 'probably' not have a problem referring to those convicted males as 'she' when in a work situation?

kesstrel · 06/05/2020 11:52

You would 'probably' not have a problem referring to those convicted males as 'she' when in a work situation?

I suspect the word "probably/" was intended to cover that particular situation. At least, that's how most people would interpret it, I think. Otherwise, why use that word?

kesstrel · 06/05/2020 11:59

I used to automatically,

I think a lot of people are still in that position, and I don't think they should be condemned for it. It takes time and thought to move away from it and to see the problems with it.

Also, it's important to remember that our minds are almost "designed" to be able to hold contradictory ideas at the same time, especialy if group acceptance is involved. This is particularly true of young peope whose brains don't fully develop till their mid twenties. That's why argument and persuasion are important.

R0wantrees · 06/05/2020 12:00

I suspect the word "probably/" was intended to cover that particular situation. At least, that's how most people would interpret it, I think. Otherwise, why use that word?

People are not generally advised of work colleagues convictions and would not be aware of crimes they had committed which were not successfully prosecuted.

R0wantrees · 06/05/2020 12:09

I think a lot of people are still in that position, and I don't think they should be condemned for it. It takes time and thought to move away from it and to see the problems with it.

Fairplay For Women article by Barracker
'Pronouns are Rohypnol'
4th June 2019
(extract)
"There’s a lot of chat around about pronouns right now. Specifically, ‘preferred’ pronouns. By which is usually meant, the pronouns a person would prefer other people to use when they are the subject being discussed by those people.

‘This is how I want you to talk about me’.

Almost without exception, the people who request, or demand, others talk about them using specific pronouns, are asking for pronouns associated with the opposite sex to their own.

A simple politeness. A courtesy.

I’ve heard many people tell me they don’t mind doing this, as a courtesy, although it takes some effort to keep up the mental gymnastics of perceiving one sex, but consistently using pronouns for the other. That’s a personal choice, and I respect the reasons why some people make it.

I’ve also heard many people declaring that anyone who won’t comply (usually directed at a woman) is obnoxious, mean, hostile, and unpleasant. ‘Misgendering’ is hate speech. They say.

But I refuse to use female pronouns for anyone male. Because pronouns are like Rohypnol.

One of the biggest obstacles to halting the stampede over women’s rights is pronoun and preferred name ‘courtesy’. People severely underestimate the psychological impact to themselves, and to others, of compliance.

You doubt this absurd claim I just made, obviously. You have the fortitude of mind to be uninfluenced by such trivia, and I have got this wrong. I understand. Bear with.

And try this quick experiment.

  1. The cost of USING preferred pronouns yourself: Have you heard of the STROOP TEST? faculty.washington.edu/chudler/words.html

It’s a well known “name that colour” psychological phenomenon. A quick and simple experiment where you have to say the colour of the words written in front of you. Simple as that. Except the speed and accuracy of your answers is heavily impacted by any incongruence between the colour you see, and the actual word itself.

Try it HERE, if you like fun interactive tests. It takes less than a minute to complete. Compare the difference in your times between part one and part two of the experiment.
faculty.washington.edu/chudler/java/ready.html

You’ll find you have to consciously fight the conflict of input to your brain each and every time. And it leaves you confused, distracted, slower, frustrated and fatigued.

Forcing our brains to ignore the evidence of our eyes, to ignore a conflict between what we see and know to be true, and what we are expected to say, affects us.

USING preferred pronouns does the same. It alters your attention, your speed of processing, your automaticity. You may find it makes you anxious. You pay less heed to what you want to say, and more to what is expected of you. It slows you down, confuses you, makes you less reactive. That’s not a good thing.

  1. The cost of HEARING or READING preferred pronouns from others: Try this next experiment. For a week, re-translate all the transgender articles and comments you find, back to sex-based pronouns, nouns and original names. Rewrite them back to the blunt truth and then read them again. Doing this exercise solely in your mind will do just fine, but editing on a screen is better.

Convert female pronouns back to male; use surnames instead of first names, and convert terms like transwoman back to just ‘man’.

Better yet, if you know the original name of the subject, use it, be it David, or Rhys, or Ashton, or Jonathan.

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet, yes? It shouldn’t matter. No-one else will be hurt or affected by this private experiment. It’s entirely between you, and your own resilient mind.

(Try not to get banned from anywhere during this experiment)

Read your translated version again.

If those small acts of preferred pronoun compliance are truly meaningless concessions, (although, see above banning potential for contradictory evidence of import) given as a courtesy to others at no cost to you or to other women, then this private exercise will change nothing, cost nothing, affect no-one. You’ll walk away thinking, yep, as I thought, fuss about nothing. (continues)

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

kesstrel · 06/05/2020 12:17

People are not generally advised of work colleagues convictions and would not be aware of crimes they had committed which were not successfully prosecuted.

Your question was asking about "convicted" colleagues. You are changing the goalposts.

However, you raise any interesting point: none of us are able to be completely sure that people we work with aren't criminals or otherwise horrible people, so if we use preferred pronouns we may be inadvertently "being polite" to people who absolutely don't deserve our politeness or consideration. So perhaps best not to use preferred pronouns in that situation, unless forced to?

kesstrel · 06/05/2020 12:21

I think the pronouns are rohypnol point is a very good one, and I generally agree with it. I just think that people who haven't yet heard that argument, or who are struggling with their cognitive dissonance shouldn't be condemned out of hand, especially if they are young. As I've already said, persuasion and argument are the keys.

R0wantrees · 06/05/2020 12:40

People are not generally advised of work colleagues convictions and would not be aware of crimes they had committed which were not successfully prosecuted.

Your question was asking about "convicted" colleagues. You are changing the goalposts.

No I raised the question about the 'probable' use of female pronouns in the workplace to refer (for example) to the convicted males in the OP video before & after successful prosecution.

R0wantrees · 06/05/2020 13:04

if we use preferred pronouns we may be inadvertently "being polite" to people who absolutely don't deserve our politeness or consideration. So perhaps best not to use preferred pronouns in that situation, unless forced to

Doesn't stopping oneself using the correct sex-based pronouns risk causing the same effects?

from article above

"You’ll find you have to consciously fight the conflict of input to your brain each and every time. And it leaves you confused, distracted, slower, frustrated and fatigued.

Forcing our brains to ignore the evidence of our eyes, to ignore a conflict between what we see and know to be true, and what we are expected to say, affects us."

Use of pronouns is an early part of English language development.
Primary school resource:

Pronouns
"This KS2 English quiz will challenge you on pronouns. A pronoun is a word which replaces a noun. "Helen, Tom and Nadia decided to share Helen's, Tom's and Nadia's toys" sounds ridiculous! It's much better English to say, "Helen, Tom and Nadia decided to share their toys." The word 'their' is a pronoun, like 'he' and 'his', 'she' and 'her', 'you' and 'your', and 'I' and 'my'. Other pronouns include 'it'.

The majority of people naturally use pronouns when speaking. It certainly helps to use them in your writing as it shortens what might be a very lengthy sentence!"
www.educationquizzes.com/ks2/english/pronouns/

MoleSmokes · 06/05/2020 19:21

OldCrone - "These young trans people and 'trans kids' are being used as a human shield for the sexually driven older men. I posted a link a few times to a video of one of these older male TRAs spelling this out, but it's been taken down now.

His comment about 'trans kids' was that they take the 'sex' out of transgenderism, because obviously the children aren't driven by the same sexual motives as the middle aged males. By suggesting that the children are somehow the same as the middle aged males makes it harder to criticise the late transitioning adults, because there is also implied criticism of the children. Conversely, unquestioning acceptance of 'trans kids' implies that the middle aged male transitioners should also be accepted without question."

I don't think I ever saw that video but a couple that cover similar ground come to mind:

"CLIP: The Transgender Jedi Mind Trick" by Jenn Smith

Arty Morty covers it in one of his videos but I can't remember which one, dammit! I would check them all out but my fish and chips have just arrived and they'll be getting cold!

Arty Morty's YouTube Channel

www.youtube.com/channel/UCsIEHEgnuo0g1sUuZ0BG--g/featured

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