What broader issues has the trans (lack of) debate opened your eyes to?

[FredFlintstonesTunic]

For me, it's really exposed how large media platforms (i.e., a few very rich and powerful people) can shape public perceptions (e.g., by blocking, shaming, nudging and belittling certain ideas and/or people, and promoting others).

I'm no longer so quick to dismiss other people's unusual opinions, or to label them "conspiracists" without looking as openly as possible into what they're talking about (including from sources associated with intelligent people not necessarily in the mainstream media). I don't trust Wikipedia (or Urban Dictionary) without question (which I shouldn't have anyway, but...). I have more respect for people who are willing to say unpopular things (e.g., left-wingers who don't like the EU). In general, I'm far more likely to take news stories with a pinch of salt.

Anyone else?

When you ask them to prove Assumption One, they respond with Assumption Two, and when you ask them to prove Assumption Two, they respond with Assumption One. Cue theme music from The Magic Roundabout.

Ah yes, the old 'goalpost movement at lightning speed'. Is that what they call bait and switch? Amazing the ways you can describe what is essentially lying.

I find it hard to understand how people think 'it will never happen' because..

a. it already has happened.

b.They deny it has happened, so they're lying.

c. They say it won't be a problem because of so few trans, this is also a lie because they offend at the same rate as men, which they are.

Lemonadeanddaisychains you sound like you are not arguing in good faith.

Is that how you mean to come across?

My comments are genuine.
I'm just genuinely baffled as to how people seem to be AGREEING with me, saying basically the same thing but in the next breath saying I don't understand.

Other person -
What I understood from that comment was: If people can be so easily convinced that people can change sex, what else could people be made to believe?

Me - If people can be easily convinced people can change sex, then what else can they be made to believe - eg lizard people, little green men? (two examples brought up by another poster not me)

Same thing.
We're saying the same thing - only diff is other person left off lizard people and little green men (probably because it makes it sound too bonkers, who know)

Lemonade no one understands what you are getting at. You seem to be misinterpreting posts and then being baffled by everyone else telling you this. It’s a bit “Everyone’s out of step but our Johnny”

No problem tyro and thanks to you and goosefoot for the interesting replies to my question about fetishes.

I think what has happened in terms of acceptance is that it is now 'acceptable' to flaunt your fetish in public (AGP males). I'm not sure that many people realise exactly what they are being accepting of

Yes, I really want some people to wake up to what on earth they are actually supporting. Allowing a sexual fetish to be dressed up (no pun intended) as an oppressed minority interest with validation of said fetish involving the attempted wholesale dismantling of women and girls' sex-based rights and protections and the gaslighting of everyone, down to kids in primary schools...well it all just beggars belief.

Lemonade no one understands what you are getting at

I questioned a post saying that said if we were to believe trans women are women, then what else are we supposed to believe in? (such as lizards and little green men was two examples given)
I said that was David Icke territory.
The only thing being disagreed with seems to be the Icke bit as to some it's clearly not.
We'll just have to disagree, as if some want to go down the conspiracy theory tin hat route, that's up to them.
I'll stick to the oooookay route and slowly back away from that road....

I'm beginning to wonder if people are not getting it on purpose or pretending to not understand, or are too far in?
Who knows

I'm too far in.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains
David Icke believes in lizard-people, doesn't he?
Whereas the post you're referring to used lizard-people as an example of a bizarre belief - that is, the post expressed a belief directly contradictory to Icke.
But in your post, you seemed to be saying the post expressed beliefs similar to Icke's.
Did you mean to imply that?

TWAW only fools those who don't know the difference between an adjective that modifies a noun, tall woman and Black woman for example, and a compound word which changes the meaning of the noun entirely, Seahorses are not horses, hot dogs are not dogs, trans women are not women.

I've seen people cling on to some desperate things on these threads in order to avoid answering the questions put to them for hours or days on end but that really does take the biscuit.

Ah yes, the old 'goalpost movement at lightning speed'. Is that what they call bait and switch? Amazing the ways you can describe what is essentially lying.

Some people are lying, but I am pretty sure that there is a large group who don't realise what they are doing. They don't see the distinction, or they see the two points as connected but aren't able to articulate the connection they are making. Often that means that it is fuzzy in their own minds too.
Some people also seem like a combination of those. They are arguing in a manipulative way but don't realise it. Maybe they think that's how discussions are supposed to work?

I questioned a post saying that said if we were to believe trans women are women, then what else are we supposed to believe in? (such as lizards and little green men was two examples given)
I said that was David Icke territory.
The only thing being disagreed with seems to be the Icke bit as to some it's clearly not.
We'll just have to disagree, as if some want to go down the conspiracy theory tin hat route, that's up to them.

No, you've misunderstood. No one is saying we are supposed to believe in lizard people.
What they are saying is if it is possible to use messaging or education or political pressure, whatever, to make people really believe something that is clearly untrue, what other untrue things would it be possible to make them believe?

Most people think that it is difficult to get people to believe things that are manifestly false. But say, for example, we saw that the media, through re-education, make people believe that the sky had changed to be red, even though it clearly hadn't - you would then likely question what other things people might believe.

Lizard men were just an example of something it seems most people would not believe, like the sky being red.

I've seen people cling on to some desperate things on these threads in order to avoid answering the questions put to them for hours or days on end but that really does take the biscuit.

I know! I decided a while back that this thread should be called "lockdown fun"...

What a great thread!! Really interesting to read through - I agree with so much that's been said.

That the Spectator of all periodicals would come nearest to matching my current political approach.

Haha! Totally this!!

For me, it's that truth and facts are no longer relevant; bent or stretched, retold just to fit with their ideology. When we start losing sight of the facts then we're in big trouble.

Free speech is in jeopardy. Who would have though that! Again, very worrisome!!

I've always considered myself as left wing but now I feel politically homeless. In this, the left to me seems as ugly as far right politics - forcing an ideology on people, trying to silence hose who disagree, threats of violence! It's utter madness. I would say that this has made me much more open to other political views and opinions. And a very big advocate of a civilised kind of politics.

Agree with you Sidsparrow, I took out a subscription to the Times because of how their journalists are telling the truth about this and I read The Madness of Crowds and I tune into Douglas Murray, Toby Young etc which I would never have done 5 years ago.

I'm considering switching my Unison membership to Toby Young's Free Speech union - they're more likely to defend me against a complaint of transphobia than Unison are and TBH I'm wondering why I'm giving them my money.

Fuxache who reported my posts and what for?

This deliberate targeting of feminists is so transparent.

I would love to see more research into fetish. Years ago I worked in acute MH services, cross dressing was a feature for a high % of the men we saw. We also had nappy wearers much not so many
I do believe society can create a fetish. Like China with bound feet
I read about a country, I forget which, which had a particular problem with groping on trains. Sex clubs started putting mock train carriages in and griping on proper trains sky rocketed
Is it not well researched because it is largely men?

I should have proof read. Not as many nappy fetishes

@ScreamingBeans what did you just get deleted for?! (obviously you can't repeat verbatim, but what was the gist?)