What broader issues has the trans (lack of) debate opened your eyes to?

[FredFlintstonesTunic]

For me, it's really exposed how large media platforms (i.e., a few very rich and powerful people) can shape public perceptions (e.g., by blocking, shaming, nudging and belittling certain ideas and/or people, and promoting others).

I'm no longer so quick to dismiss other people's unusual opinions, or to label them "conspiracists" without looking as openly as possible into what they're talking about (including from sources associated with intelligent people not necessarily in the mainstream media). I don't trust Wikipedia (or Urban Dictionary) without question (which I shouldn't have anyway, but...). I have more respect for people who are willing to say unpopular things (e.g., left-wingers who don't like the EU). In general, I'm far more likely to take news stories with a pinch of salt.

Anyone else?

Not sure FredF's Tunic, maybe because I said that someone was gaslighting.

Personal attack and insinuating bad intentions just for differing opinion

Well I think so anyway

Sure thing Lemonade.

I'll be sure not to disagree with you in future.

Nothing wrong with disagreeing, bit of a difference between personal attacks though

joining the thread a bit late as it appears to have decended into argument but - to be honest - you covered in your opening post OP.

As a consequence of what you described in your OP I've listened to right-wing commentators like "Louder with Crowder" and learnt so much! My pro-abortion views have been sharpened because now I'm engaging properly with smart people who disagree with me instead of just looking down on them. And on some issues my mind as been changed. It's been really good for my relationship with a family member who votes for Trump. It's been really good for me- I've stopped being a smug twat.

"I'm no longer so quick to dismiss other people's unusual opinions, or to label them "conspiracists" without looking as openly as possible into what they're talking about (including from sources associated with intelligent people not necessarily in the mainstream media). I don't trust Wikipedia (or Urban Dictionary) without question (which I shouldn't have anyway, but...). I have more respect for people who are willing to say unpopular things (e.g., left-wingers who don't like the EU). In general, I'm far more likely to take news stories with a pinch of salt. "

imo it is a personal attack to pretend that someone is a tin foil hatter.

It’s how those who demand that women move over and permits Male bodies people into female spaces, are unable to have a proper discussion and acknowledge that women’s concerns are legitimate.

They’ll deliberately twist what you have to say, pretend that they don’t understand you, in order to badger you and try to gaslight you into doubting your own words. They will pick out one comment or even word and go on and on and on about that, while twisting the meaning of it. They act all wide eyed and innocent, while saying “but you said....”. Completely disingenuous and only do it to change the whole dynamic of a conversation or to detail it completely.

Just so,Totallyfuckedup. I guess because they know their arguments don't stand up to scrutiny, so they try to evade the issues.

Exactly, ScreamingBeans.

Which is why I keep saying that when that pattern becomes obvious it's best just to not engage.

Well given that Mumsnet allow it, I think you're right Kitten.

I don't come on very much anymore so I forget the dynamics of MN FWR section nowadays.

It's gotten worse, I think.

The power of language.

I mean I know it is used to influence all the time, but I appreciate even more what Orwell was saying about the power of controlling language. The sheer depth and extent of control that words and language in and of themselves have on our thought and behaviour and what happens to our very thought process and ability to reason, analyse, organise and fight back when certain words aren't permitted, don't even exist, or when we are compelled to use others.

I see much better now how words are what enable a foggy sense of unease and injustice to be sharpened into pinpoint focus, enabling clarity of thought on an issue, so as to realise exactly what you are dealing with.

Also of course how they are used to obfuscate and mislead.

What broader issues has the trans (lack of) debate opened your eyes to?

Safeguarding.

From putting children's interests first in the Childrens Act to all those safeguarding courses that everyone did in the late 90s/early 2000s.

For some reason, the core of safeguarding and children's interests has been quietly dropping off the agenda, replaced by the needs and wants of interest groups and leaving only a shell of soundbites and lipservice.

Good point Melroses

Now you've got me thinking, interesting timing too. Like as the safeguarding walls went up, new ways through need to be found...

I read about a country, I forget which, which had a particular problem with groping on trains.

It's Japan. Some of the trains have female-only carriages to give women a chance to get to work unmolested.

Strangely, the handsy male commuters have no difficulty knowing what a woman is.

Bit crap for any biological woman who doesn't look "womanly" enough for you (whatever the fuck that is.)

I've been missexed on numerous occasions. I need only speak a few words for the misunderstanding to be resolved, because my voice gives the game away no matter what I'm wearing or doing nor how I've styled my hair. Unlike trans privilege activists, I welcome being challenged in a toilet or other sex-segregated space. Women and girls who challenge me have firm boundaries and the confidence to defend them, reducing their chances of a molester succeeding to harm them. Women's and girls' boundaries are infinitely more important than my feelings about how others perceive me.

That some people really will argue black is white in order to try and shut women up and deflect attention.

I did not take the cookies. Wasn’t me. Nope. I wasn’t even there. The cat did it...

The issue of nature versus nurture. I don't believe all behaviour is purely socially conditioned. It is certainly interesting to look at twin studies - of those separated at birth and brought up in quite different cultures. the similarities remain. I think likewise for sex.

This goes to the heart, as well, of the whole transgender ideology -which has in many ways arisen out of later stage feminism; and which could also be seen as an unfortunate consequence of it.

That's not to say that biology absolutely determines individual destiny, and in a liberal democracy is certainly doesn't. although sexed differences do remain and are influential in an individual's life.

It is also why men are not women, and women are not men, and cannot become so, no matter how many plastic tits or prosthetic penises are created.

..the whole transgender ideology -which has in many ways arisen out of later stage feminism.....

How so?

Feminism generally doesn’t elevate men.

This goes to the heart, as well, of the whole transgender ideology -which has in many ways arisen out of later stage feminism; and which could also be seen as an unfortunate consequence of it.

Recently published articles by Dr Em
"explores how the founding fathers of ‘scientific’ research on transgenderism/transsexualism were motivated by sexist beliefs."

uncommongroundmedia.com/sexist-science-transsexualism-part-i-benjamin-ihlenfeld-money-ehrhardt/

uncommongroundmedia.com/robert-stoller-true-trans/