What broader issues has the trans (lack of) debate opened your eyes to?

[FredFlintstonesTunic]

For me, it's really exposed how large media platforms (i.e., a few very rich and powerful people) can shape public perceptions (e.g., by blocking, shaming, nudging and belittling certain ideas and/or people, and promoting others).

I'm no longer so quick to dismiss other people's unusual opinions, or to label them "conspiracists" without looking as openly as possible into what they're talking about (including from sources associated with intelligent people not necessarily in the mainstream media). I don't trust Wikipedia (or Urban Dictionary) without question (which I shouldn't have anyway, but...). I have more respect for people who are willing to say unpopular things (e.g., left-wingers who don't like the EU). In general, I'm far more likely to take news stories with a pinch of salt.

Anyone else?

She also believes in fate. Her belief is that whatever happens, is meant to be. I can't think of many beliefs less suitable for someone who's supposed to work out government policy.

So, as an example, are people meant to be poor, in her mind? What does that mean in terms of how she thinks society should respond to poverty?

So, as an example, are people meant to be poor, in her mind? What does that mean in terms of how she thinks society should respond to poverty?

No, I don't think she thinks that poor people are meant to be poor. There's not very much consistency to it, but it seems to deeply affect how she sees risk or conflicting interests. So, she won't say 'Poor people are destined to be poor' but if she's in favour of something (like Self ID) and you point out possible risks, she'll say 'Nah, none of that will happen, and anyway, what's meant to happen will happen.'

So basically what will be will be, but only if it's something she wanted to happen anyway(or not). How very convenient! I don't think there's much point trying to argue with someone like that, though with her decisions having impact on others I can see why you'd want to try.

TheProdigalKittensReturn

Exactly. It's really depressing because the area she's in is one I really care about (it's not to do with the trans issue).

I've given up, although sometimes we have unavoidable arguments - for example, I'm being very careful about social distancing and she isn't, and she got annoyed about that. That kind of sums us up pretty well - I tend to be cautious, and she isn't, which is fine so long as it's only affecting her. Except, she's very happy to force the risks that she chooses onto others.

But anyway it's just a possible explanation of how Self ID has been introduced everywhere - maybe people go for these jobs because they feel confident enough, and they feel confident enough because they don't see the complexity and because they ignore anything that doesn't fit with their existing views.

Mermoose that is truly frightening

At this point if people started arguing passionately that the little green men/lizard people have been here all along and it's them behind coronavirus I'm not sure I'd be surprised.
Ah...um..... just...
wow.
So we've gone to trans people to little green men and lizard people?
I..... that's...... rational.
Did I take a wrong turn into the David Icke forum?!

Let’s test this by asking ourselves where all the middle aged women who are now able to reveal themselves as trans are. Where are the 52 year old married women with two children, suddenly telling the world that they always felt like a man and now that the world is more accepting, they are free to be their true selves? And being given a newspaper column in which to document their testosterone induced stubble and newfound love of the pub? Oh yes there are none. There are no women like this. No elderly women either. No females at all apart from the teenagers and 20somethings.

Well, there are some, but I take your point that there seem to be far fewer than the other way around.

But this may just come down to Goosefoot's point (which I have seen elsewhere) about sexual paraphilias, fetishes and irregular development generally being far more common among men than women. It's quite possible that there could be far more M>F transgender people than F>M, without that making the experience of the first group any less real or meaning they are "faking it". There's not really any reason why the numbers should be similar.

Whatchatalkingabout, Lemonade?

Your post upthread Prodigal

Other things I’ve learnt from this debate is that many people have poor comprehension skills, and/or are prepared to be completely disingenuous. Two common issues that impact many areas of life .

Mens fetishes seems to be their imagination running free and wanting it to be real.
For women they have historically kept such imaginative thoughts to themselves.

We know why this is.
It is not in a women's interest to divulge such personal desires, hence the popularity of reading Nancy Friday's books or similar back in the 60's.
The same could be said for 50 Shades of Grey.

Reading and using your imagination is a very private affair and can get women 'in the mood'.

I suggest men want 'everyone else' to perform for them, whereas women use their 'imagination' to perform.

The womens activity is internal and private therefore considerate to her partner(s) concerns.

The mens activity is external and can escalates into coercive control.

Other things I’ve learnt from this debate is that many people have poor comprehension skills, and/or are prepared to be completely disingenuous

Was that to me?
How come then
This whole thing has been like a mass experiment in social compliance, one with rather worrying results

"This whole thing" - believing trans women are women, am I right?
If not what does "this whole thing" mean?
It reads if we believe trans women are women, then lizard people and green men could be real.
Yeah.... as I said.... um we've gone into David Icke territory.
But I've got poor reading comprehension according to you - come on then, what did it mean or are you just going to snit and sneer instead?

Mermoose

That is very worrying, indeed. And I'm feeling frustrated just reading it. It must be awful in real life.

Mermoose
maybe people go for these jobs because they feel confident enough, and they feel confident enough because they don't see the complexity

That seems to be the place where politicians and players live.

Most of us see the complexities when we read the job description.

Then there's the Peter Principle where people get promoted until they are in a position where they are incompetent.

And there they stay.

I think the Peter Principle is an unintended consequence of a culture that many companies adopt, where you are expected to be ambitious and want to rise through the organisation.
Niche workers are often sneered at as being unambitious, as if thats the worst trait you could possibly have, and damaging to the company.

Mermoose your friend reminded me of this episode of yes minister, everything is just theory distinct from reality so why does it matter?:

Aesopfable thanks for the link, god I love Yes Minister :)
Funnily enough though, I think that my friend is the opposite of Humphrey. She does very much believe in ends. She's convinced, for example, that Self ID is good and opposition to it bad - that's actually where the problem is. She has such overwhelming moral conviction that she can't entertain any argument or ambiguity.

It reads if we believe trans women are women, then lizard people and green men could be real.

You're showing your poor comprehension skills again Lemonade (or are you just being disingenuous?).

What I understood from that comment was: If people can be so easily convinced that people can change sex, what else could people be made to believe?

Just out of interest, what convinced you that people can change sex? And at what point in their 'transition' do you believe that they change sex?

Just out of interest, what convinced you that people can change sex?

I've never said that people can biologically change sex.

If people can be so easily convinced that people can change sex, what else could people be made to believe?

If people can be so easily convinced that people can change sex, what else could people be made to believe?
Potatoes, patatahs
You've basically said what I just said!
If people can be easily convinced people can change sex, then what else can they be made to believe - eg lizard people, little green men?
Only difference seems to be that you don't seem to see it as David Icke territory and as perfectly plausible.
As I said... um... right OK.

For clarity - perfectly plausible meaning that it's perfectly plausible that we could be made to think of little green men and lizard people and believe in it, not that you think they could be real (I hope you don't anyway lol)

She has such overwhelming moral conviction that she can't entertain any argument or ambiguity.

Does she believe violent rapists should be able to self identify their way into women's prisons? Or is she of the, that won't happen, variety. When it is happening.

I've never said that people can biologically change sex.

What does 'transwomen are women' mean? A woman is an adult female human, a man is an adult male human. Transwomen are men who want to be women. Saying 'transwomen are women' is like saying 'men are women'. So you are saying that people can change sex.

You've basically said what I just said!

But you didn't seem to understand what was meant when it was put like this:

At this point if people started arguing passionately that the little green men/lizard people have been here all along and it's them behind coronavirus I'm not sure I'd be surprised. This whole thing has been like a mass experiment in social compliance, one with rather worrying results.

If you can make people believe that people can change sex, what else could they be made to believe?

I just....whut.
You're literally all agreeing with me but in the same breath saying I don't seem to understand
Dafuq lol

Does she believe violent rapists should be able to self identify their way into women's prisons? Or is she of the, that won't happen, variety. When it is happening.

She's of the 'it won't happen, but if it does happen, they're still women and should be treated as such' variety.

Basically it's the argument that a lot of pro-Self ID people use. They think they're making one assumption but actually they're making two. Assumption One: TWAW
Assumption Two: It doesn't matter if they are or not

When you ask them to prove Assumption One, they respond with Assumption Two, and when you ask them to prove Assumption Two, they respond with Assumption One. Cue theme music from The Magic Roundabout.