What broader issues has the trans (lack of) debate opened your eyes to?

[FredFlintstonesTunic]

For me, it's really exposed how large media platforms (i.e., a few very rich and powerful people) can shape public perceptions (e.g., by blocking, shaming, nudging and belittling certain ideas and/or people, and promoting others).

I'm no longer so quick to dismiss other people's unusual opinions, or to label them "conspiracists" without looking as openly as possible into what they're talking about (including from sources associated with intelligent people not necessarily in the mainstream media). I don't trust Wikipedia (or Urban Dictionary) without question (which I shouldn't have anyway, but...). I have more respect for people who are willing to say unpopular things (e.g., left-wingers who don't like the EU). In general, I'm far more likely to take news stories with a pinch of salt.

Anyone else?

How much people still believe in gender stereotypes. Bringing up girls in the 'Let Toys be Toys' era, I thought that people were moving past it.

How people will happily rewrite history to match their agenda.

How little some people properly understand Science, esp in regards to physical differences between male and female bodies

It is surprising that many of the battles we thought had been or were being won were provisional and conditional victories and only a slight change in direction of the wind could see things reversed.

How resolutely people believe in pink brains and blue brains.

The Wokebeard phenomenon has been a bit of a shocker for me, as I'm pretty much surrounded by the fuckers and I always assumed they were on my (women's) side. Having always been a tedious loud lefty, I'm finding myself far more in sympathy with some mindsets (if not actual ideologies) of other parts of the sociopolitical spectrum, which has been a bit challenging (but on the whole a really positive thing). The group-think, thought-policing going on on the left has been revealed to me through this issue, and left me feeling pretty disillusioned with left wing politics as a whole.

All of the above - but mostly the level of institutional capture that has literally enabled predators to access women and children at will while smug institutions look the other way - or in cases like Karen White, cheerlead their activities.

How little safeguarding is understood.

That so called progressive left wing men see absolutely nothing wrong in telling women it's our job to protect feminine males from violence committed by other males, and that they don't see themselves as needing to lift a finger to try and make male spaces safe for feminine males.

The Wokebeard phenomenon has been a bit of a shocker for me, as I'm pretty much surrounded by the fuckers and I always assumed they were on my (women's) side

I often wonder what would happen if thewe mens' dds were assaulted or fell victim to one of the many scenarios they fail to acknowledge are an issue. Whether they would honestly think they had done something wrong, call their own daughters sluts , or tell their daughters they should be kind and let the males take their medals and places on the sports team

How afraid the patriarchy is, of being emasculated, to the point that any man who doesn't conform to/present as their narrow view of a male (straight, masculine, aggressive etc), is declared to be lesser, or even a woman trapped in a mans body. Because no "real man" could think like that...

How little regard many have to womens rights in general. Men most of all, but also privileged (and sometimes ignorant), women in postitions of authority. Watching labour party conferences etc and seeing how many women, will sell out other women, for "woke" points.

How much lazy thinking, cognitive bias and general horribleness there is on the left. I've been liberal/left all my life - I've really started to question that.

How little safeguarding is understood.

Yes, R0, that too.

For me, it's how deeply pornography has shaped a whole generation's view of what justice is. Porn use used to be a bit of a secret, now it's the only true path to self actualisation for a lot of young people.

Hence the endless defense of sex work, the pleas not to be kink shamed (no matter what the kink actually is), the pride in defining your identity by your sexual tastes (or lack thereof), the insistance on adults having absolute freedom to get their rocks off no matter what risk it may pose to a vulnerable group (children, the disabled, the traumatised).

*have for

The willingness of supposedly intelligent people to believe illogical, incoherent, evidence free nonsense if they think that this is the ‘liberal’ position. Emperors clothes is a real thing.

The ideological purity and group think.

How it’s seemingly okay to breach procedure, and even the law, if the person is the ‘wrong sort’ of person.
Then they don’t matter.

First they came for the.....

Some people are so attached to their self-image as ‘progressive liberals’ that they will along with anything under that banner no matter what it is and no matter how much evidence is produced to the contrary.

How little men understand women’s experience. My DH strongly supports female rights yet had to have it carefully spelled out to him why allowing any bloke to ‘self identify’ himself into womens facilities was a really really bad idea. But then he’s never been followed home, flashed at, had a bloke try to entice him onto waste ground, had dirty phone calls from a neighbour or seen horrific rapes and murders of women and thought ‘that could have been me’. He finds it hard to understand that a strange naked bloke in a female only facility is not the same experience for a woman as a strange naked female would be in a male only facility would be for a man. However he was all ‘TWAW’ until I asked if that meant he’d go to bed with a pre op transwoman......

This is such a good thread. So many campaigning ideas to go forward with.

The Wokebeard phenomenon has been a bit of a shocker for me, as I'm pretty much surrounded by the fuckers and I always assumed they were on my (women's) side. ... The group-think, thought-policing ... has left me feeling pretty disillusioned with left wing politics as a whole.

Speaking as another lifelong leftie, back in the 70s I thought leftwing men were just being a bit slow in understanding feminism. There was nothing, nothing I ever saw that hinted at the bottomless well of hatred and contempt for women that's now revealed.

I mean, I could see that some leftwing men were pretty reactionary in guarding their own privileges. That's just hypocrisy. A lot of it seemed to wear off over the past few decades.

I saw nothing to prepare anyone for men posing online with baseball bats, crowing about smashing women's faces in. Men demanding access to all women's spaces. Men campaigning to get rape crisis centres de-funded. Men getting feminists sacked from their jobs and threatened with violence. Men allowing other men to take the trophies in women's sports.

And leftwingers not only allow this but actively support it. I never saw that coming.

Mostly just how misogyny is so deeply entrenched that its effectively invisible to a lot of people.

This. I've known it since I was around 12 - which is for almost 50 years. But when I say things like: "Well, most people don't consider women to be fully human" - I'm treated like a vicious man-hating "feminazi".

But I teach feminist history/theory, and I teach about structural oppression of women through patriarchy, not liberal "choice feminism" and it's extraordinary how young female undergrads start seeing the world differently. And how much pent up anxiety and anger there is, even amongst the young women we might think are "woke."

They need this stuff.

So I suppose I'm not surprised about what TRA highlights; I knew it already.

What I am pleased about is the renewed activity of the women's movement, although it's sad that a lot of younger women are having to reinvent the wheel. I try not to say too much, "Well, when I went to the Women's Lib conferences in the 1970s ..."

I think we are reaping the whirlwind if the "I don't need to be a feminist" movement of the 1980s.

back in the 70s I thought leftwing men were just being a bit slow in understanding feminism

I was an 18 year old in the late 70s, hanging out with CND type crowd as well as women's libbers.

I learnt very quickly that lefty men were just as much male chauvinist pigs as right wing men. And at least the right wing men didn't pretend to be interested in your politics and feminism to get you to sleep with them. Left wing men were appalling, in my experience.

How many lazy thinkers there are in academia and / or how many academics will do and say anything to further their careers, irrespective of how much damage it causes to others and to society at large.

I think I've mostly been surprised at how extremely conservative the 'progressive' part of society is.

Way back when I was vocally Pro life and embedded in Conservative evangelicalism, I had this perspective that liberal viewpoints were actually liberal and forward thinking, and when I managed to extricate myself from the clutches of conservative open patriarchy, it was a HUGE shock to discover the progressive end of Christianity, for example, pushing the idea that girls and boys had different innate personalities, and even that gay people who rejected trans people who claimed to be the opposite sex as sexual partners needed to deal with their own 'prejudice' against trans people.

I think my jaw has dropped more than once because I had sort of assumed that by not being 'conservative' any more, I would obviously be 'progressive', but I honestly look at that segment of society with as much startled disdain as I do the conservative evangelicals who tell women to be silent in church.

What is the difference between a conservative telling a lesbian she should think seriously about marrying a man to deal with her 'disordered sexuality' and a progressive telling a lesbian she should be open to 'women with penises' because she can 'get over' her sexual orientation?

I still can't get my head around it, and I'm still so disappointed in a number of people I thought were brave and ground breaking in the church and I now see are every bit as bigoted and chained to traditional woman hatred and anti gay ideas as the conservatives they despise.

Which basically means all the 'love' talk is pure bullshit. They just like having a new target to loathe. It's been a shock.

Girl guides and women's sports.
I mean how on earth did we get to this?

Safeguarding children totally shoved aside to highlight the acting ability of the trans players.

Like a compass needle that points north, a man's accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.
Khaled Hosseini

How they pass the blame onto women, as demonstrated on FWR, frequently.