What broader issues has the trans (lack of) debate opened your eyes to?

[FredFlintstonesTunic]

For me, it's really exposed how large media platforms (i.e., a few very rich and powerful people) can shape public perceptions (e.g., by blocking, shaming, nudging and belittling certain ideas and/or people, and promoting others).

I'm no longer so quick to dismiss other people's unusual opinions, or to label them "conspiracists" without looking as openly as possible into what they're talking about (including from sources associated with intelligent people not necessarily in the mainstream media). I don't trust Wikipedia (or Urban Dictionary) without question (which I shouldn't have anyway, but...). I have more respect for people who are willing to say unpopular things (e.g., left-wingers who don't like the EU). In general, I'm far more likely to take news stories with a pinch of salt.

Anyone else?

Ah sorry. missed that - so you did understand really, it was just a dig at the use or not use of the space bar.

No.

I was pointing out that trans woman and transwoman are not the same thing. The former is always female, the latter is always male.

I was also pointing out that, as a female woman who is also trans, there is no word for me, because male trans people have claimed it.

I would still be a woman, I would be trans - I would be a woman-who-is-trans. A trans woman

Trans literally means that you identify as a member of the opposite sex though, you'd be a man. A trans man. (Or transman if you're adamant that you don't want to put a space there,)
A trans woman (or transwoman as you prefer) is a man who identifies as a woman.
It's really not that hard, I mean WTF lol
You can't just decide no it doesn't mean that and make your own version up lol

Trans literally means that you identify as a member of the opposite sex though

No. It really doesn't. I suggest you go and look it up.

I was also pointing out that, as a female woman who is also trans, there is no word for me, because male trans people have claimed it

So if you're trans and don't identify as a woman, don;t see yourself as a woman, why would you want to be described as one?
You'd see yourself as a man so surely you'd want to be known as a man?

Can you see any potential problems with not just identifying as a member of the opposite sex, but insisting on a special language and treatment?

You can't just decide no it doesn't mean that and make your own version up lol

I'm just gonna leave this here. It's great.

Where did I say I don't see myself as a woman?

Lemonade you seem to have made the same mistake sexists have been using to keep women down since time immemorial.

"Woman" is not a gender identity; it is not a sex role stereotype.

I see myself as a woman not because of certain feelings, or because of a tendency to dress a certain way, but because my body is female. It's not an identity, it's a biological fact.

I'm just gonna leave this here. It's great

Fair enough, you do that, but it's what was being done though, twisting what being a trans man or a trans woman is.

Where did I say I don't see myself as a woman?

You said you were trans.
If you're a biological woman, and trans, you'd usually see yourself as being male.

What's been done is a twisting of the definition of women to include males.

I agree with you that people can't just decide to change the meaning of a word to suit them.

WRT the definition of trans, I tend to go by Stonewall's definitions.

So the gender dysphoria and the lifelong discomfort with sex stereotypes and the rejection by female peers on the grounds of failing to woman properly don't make me trans purely because I don't claim to be a man?

You seem to be implying that to be trans is simply to make a false statement about one's biological sex?

So the gender dysphoria and the lifelong discomfort with sex stereotypes and the rejection by female peers on the grounds of failing to woman properly don't make me trans

Well, yes - I'm not a fan of sex stereotypes either as a woman.
Doesn't make me trans though.
So you have gender dysphoria too? That's when you feel a difference to your birth sex, but on the other hand you said "Where did I say I don't see myself as a woman?*
That'd only begin to make sense if you're a biological man.
You sound confused

Debbie H says they're a biological man, but is still a transwoman. Debbie H freely admits they have a fetish, that only biological men have. Still a transwoman though.

You don't believe in non-binary identities then Lemonade?

Debbie H freely admits they have a fetish, that only biological men have

OK, but Debbie H is one single person, who clearly doesn't speak for everyone who is trans?
Not all trans have a fetish, theyre not one big lump of people.

First you say that a woman who identifies as trans is a trans woman
No, I didn't.

You did. Go back and read your post at 13:26.

You quoted what I had said: "If a woman identifies as transgender, using normal rules of language, that would make her a transgender woman or trans woman"

You replied: Yes. Trans woman.

So you agreed that a woman who identifies as transgender is a trans woman.

I don't get why people are finding it so hard to read my actual words?

I have no problem reading your words, but you don't seem to know what you've written.

I'm guessing Debbie H is identifying as women who identifies as a man with a fetish?

A man, identifying as a woman, identifying as a man.

What a good job somebody at the GEO rubberstamped lessons in this.

You can't just decide no it doesn't mean that and make your own version up lol

Who decided that men could call themselves women? I don't suppose women had any say in it. I can't see why women can't reclaim the word that describes themselves.

The terms 'trans women' and 'transwomen' only came into usage recently, and someone had to make that up. Some men decided woman no longer meant 'adult female human' and made up their own version. All we're doing is reclaiming the original meaning. The TRAs are the ones who've made stuff up.

So you have gender dysphoria too? That's when you feel a difference to your birth sex

Again, I suggest you go and do some research. You're talking about sex dysphoria, not gender dysphoria.

Sex dysphoria is no longer considered a prerequisite for self-definition as trans, just so you know.

Transwoman - a man identifying as a sexist social construct used to oppress women and girls. Makes perfect sense to me that Debbie identifies in this way.

Not all trans have a fetish, theyre not one big lump of people.

Very true, and we did used to have the terminology to distinguish.

Unfortunately the words "transvestite" and "transsexual" are considered transphobic by the trans lobby. We are not permitted to make the distinction.

Here's stonewall's definition of trans for you Lemonade, since you seem a bit confused about what it means.

Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, genderless, agender, nongender, third gender, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman,trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois.

www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/glossary-terms#t

Not all women who identify as trans identify as 'transmen'. They might be gender-fluid or non-binary or genderless or genderfree... Why shouldn't those women call themselves trans women, since they are women who are transgender?

I'm guessing Debbie H is identifying as women who identifies as a man with a fetish?

So one single person says that, what has that got to do with all other trans people though?
Debbie H says it according to you, that's just one person who won't speak for everyone.

I assume you’re quite new to the feminist threads, LemonadeAndDaisyChains? I’m not being funny when I ask, just genuinely interested, because of your insistence on defining women by TRA narratives, even when she disagrees with those narratives. I’m not calling you a TRA, by the way. It’s the fact that you’re hell bent on insisting that a women who doesn’t fit the stereotype of a woman as defined by Stonewall, so therefore is by, Stonewall’s definition trans, must then identify as a trans man.

We are not permitted to make the distinction
How would you know what someone else was, though?
If you are not permitted to (your words) then that makes sense - I mean why would you get to tell someone else what they are or aren't?
It'd be nothing to do with you, you don't get to tell others what they should be or who they are.