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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

What broader issues has the trans (lack of) debate opened your eyes to?

510 replies

FredFlintstonesTunic · 30/04/2020 11:49

For me, it's really exposed how large media platforms (i.e., a few very rich and powerful people) can shape public perceptions (e.g., by blocking, shaming, nudging and belittling certain ideas and/or people, and promoting others).

I'm no longer so quick to dismiss other people's unusual opinions, or to label them "conspiracists" without looking as openly as possible into what they're talking about (including from sources associated with intelligent people not necessarily in the mainstream media). I don't trust Wikipedia (or Urban Dictionary) without question (which I shouldn't have anyway, but...). I have more respect for people who are willing to say unpopular things (e.g., left-wingers who don't like the EU). In general, I'm far more likely to take news stories with a pinch of salt.

Anyone else?

OP posts:
TheProdigalKittensReturn · 04/05/2020 10:02

If nothing else, this has shown me how reluctant people are to relinquish their insane ideology even when it's clearly damaging them.

It will be fascinating to see over time which ones try to pivot, what prompts them to do so, and how ridiculous the attempt is.

TyroSaysMeow · 04/05/2020 13:17

Another thing I've learned is that people learn buzzwords and and accept slogans without thinking critically about them; and that without a decent analysis of structural oppression people are doomed to repeat it.

I mostly notice this in terms of the wisdom of previous generations of feminists, but it's a widespread issue.

Al1Langdownthecleghole · 05/05/2020 07:54

Floral’s earlier point about women’s use to men is observed well. I’m in my 50’s and therefore invisible. Until someone wants something, that is. Then I’m seemingly of use.

There’s been a couple of recent threads about Karen’s, which seems to me to be the flip side of “use”. How dare a woman over the age of forty have an opinion/expect anything?

HorseRadishFemish · 05/05/2020 08:29

I used to think that the blue/pink thing was people just being a bit pathetic and old fashioned.

I now know that it's all based on an extreme hatred of homosexuality.

Lordfrontpaw · 05/05/2020 08:56

People will parrot anything. Especially if it’s catchy and has a little visual attached to it.

Ariela · 05/05/2020 09:02

How two-faced these campaigners can be.

Why should I respect the right of someone to call them by their new prefered pronouns if they will insist on calling me a 'cis-woman' not my prefered choice 'woman' which I have been for almost 60 years when I have not made any changes to how I am perceived by the public.

I do call them what they wish but calling me out on what I want to be called is unfair and not following their rules.

Lordfrontpaw · 05/05/2020 09:14

Most are kids mucking about playing at ‘grown up activism’ with strings being pulled by very sinister individuals (bullies) and organisations.

TyroSaysMeow · 05/05/2020 12:58

Ariela their rules are inherently sexist, and you're female, so you don't get to identify as you please.

Annoys me too. I meet the definition of transgender, I am a woman, yet I may not call myself a trans woman, because men have claimed that label. There's no place for me in their ideology, even though I've been struggling with this shit since before a lot of these kids were even born.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 07/05/2020 12:52

I meet the definition of transgender, I am a woman, yet I may not call myself a trans woman, because men have claimed that label.

Sorry, but what? That makes zero sense - surely if you meet the definition of transgender and you are as you say a woman, then that'd make you a trans man? Nothing to do with men have claimed the woman label.
I'm a biological woman - I identify as a woman, I am a woman, how would that suddenly mean I'm not a woman as the men won't let me be?
If you're trans, you identify as the opposite sex - you don't identify as the sex you already are.

OldCrone · 07/05/2020 13:03

That makes zero sense - surely if you meet the definition of transgender and you are as you say a woman, then that'd make you a trans man? Nothing to do with men have claimed the woman label.

If a woman identifies as transgender, using normal rules of language, that would make her a transgender woman or trans woman. But men who want to be women have decided that if they identify as women, that makes them trans women. So men have claimed a label which should belong to women, because no man is actually a woman of any sort.

If you read comments about this topic in newspapers it's quite clear that many people think that a 'trans woman' is a woman who identifies as trans, that is, a female person who is transgender. Some of them might actually think that 'transwomen are women' means that women who identify as trans are still women, and wonder why anyone would say otherwise.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 07/05/2020 13:26

If a woman identifies as transgender, using normal rules of language, that would make her a transgender woman or trans woman
Yes. Trans woman.
As I said -

If a biological woman identifies as trans, they are identifying as a member of the opposite sex. So if I was saying I was trans, I'd be saying I was a man.
Therefore, trans man.
In the same vein - A biological man identifying as trans - trans woman.
I was referring to the poster who seemed confused as to what being trans is?
If you read comments about this topic in newspapers it's quite clear that many people think that a 'trans woman' is a woman who identifies as trans, that is, a female person who is transgender
Sounds like there's a lot of people out there who have got confused then, so at least it's clarified for people who are unaware as to what being trans means.

TyroSaysMeow · 07/05/2020 13:45

If a biological woman identifies as trans, they are identifying as a member of the opposite sex.

Ah - this is where you've misunderstood.

One doesn't have to identify as a member of the opposite sex in order to fall under the trans umbrella.

Equally, having gender dysphoria doesn't mean one necessarily thinks one ought to be the opposite sex.

Has anyone got the Stonewall definitions to hand, and the GIRES ones? And a link to the thread from a year ago in which everyone identified as genderfree might be useful too.

TyroSaysMeow · 07/05/2020 13:47

A biological man identifying as trans - trans woman.

No. This is a transwoman. It's a sex role open only to males. They are not women-who-are-trans.

Hence all the rage and fury at us uppity women refusing to put the space in the middle.

RoyalCorgi · 07/05/2020 13:53

The past few comments have made me realise there's another issue this debate has opened my eyes to, which is the power of language to shape thought. The use of "trans woman" rather than "trans identifying male" allows activists to portray trans women as a subset of the group women. So in a typical Guardian social justice article, you'll read something like "other vulnerable groups of women, such as women of colour, disabled women, trans women". It's a really clever sleight of hand. If they were forced to write "trans identifying males" or "men who identify as women" the sentence wouldn't have the same impact at all.

The same applies of course to the coercive use of "correct" pronouns such as she, her etc.

OldCrone · 07/05/2020 13:57

If a woman identifies as transgender, using normal rules of language, that would make her a transgender woman or trans woman
Yes. Trans woman.
If a biological woman identifies as trans, they are identifying as a member of the opposite sex. So if I was saying I was trans, I'd be saying I was a man.
Therefore, trans man.

You seem to be contradicting yourself there. First you say that a woman who identifies as trans is a trans woman, then that a woman who identifies as trans is a trans man (I'm assuming that you are female).

A man cannot be a woman of any sort, so obviously the woman who identifies as transgender who I was referring to is an actual female woman, not a man who wants to be a woman.

I was referring to the poster who seemed confused as to what being trans is?

I don't think the other poster was confused about what being trans is. I think she was referring to the misuse of language whereby someone who wants to be something they are not claims the word describing people who belong to the category that they want to belong to as their own, thus making the people who actually belong to that category a subset of their own category and even pushing some of them out of their own category.

Why can't these men just live as feminine men and stop appropriating the word 'woman'?

TyroSaysMeow · 07/05/2020 13:59

"other vulnerable groups of women, such as women of colour, disabled women, trans women"

Not only is it a clever sleight of hand, it also excludes feminist women (the genderfree) and replaces us with sexist men.

But, as we discovered here long ago, we're not allowed to use the m-word in any way, shape or form. Because it hurts their feelings, and ours don't count.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 07/05/2020 14:12

A biological man identifying as trans - trans woman.

No. This is a transwoman. It's a sex role open only to males. They are not women-who-are-trans.
Well of course being a trans woman is "open only to males" Confused
Because if you were a woman who was trans, you'd be a trans man.
They'd identify as a man.
They are not women-who-are-trans
I know. That's what my post said.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 07/05/2020 14:13

Second line was a quote from poster should have been bolded

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 07/05/2020 14:19

You seem to be contradicting yourself there. First you say that a woman who identifies as trans is a trans woman, then that a woman who identifies as trans is a trans man (I'm assuming that you are female)

How am I contradicting myself?

First you say that a woman who identifies as trans is a trans woman
No, I didn't.
I said a man who is trans and identifies as a woman is a trans woman.
A woman who is trans and identifies as a man is a trans man.
I don't get why people are finding it so hard to read my actual words?

Thelnebriati · 07/05/2020 14:27

I guess when you are soaked in a culture that used a special language, and you have to make a mental adjustment to learn that language, you then have to go through mental gymnastics all over again when you read plain English.

Aesopfable · 07/05/2020 14:31

The influence of small undemocratic lobby groups has shocked me.

I spotted leaflet produced by a completely different interest group today but produced in conjunction with the police with their logo on it and yet full of legal errors.

TyroSaysMeow · 07/05/2020 14:36

Because if you were a woman who was trans, you'd be a trans man.

If I identified as a man, I'd be a transman. Not a trans man. The space is important. I would still be a woman, I would be trans - I would be a woman-who-is-trans. A trans woman.

Thank you for demonstrating my point so beautifully though!

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 07/05/2020 14:38

I guess when you are soaked in a culture that used a special language

Because I have a different opinion to the majority and was just clarifying what trans means as some didn't seem to know, that means I'm soaked in a culture?
Oookkkkay Hmm

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 07/05/2020 14:40

The space is important

Ah sorry. missed that - so you did understand really, it was just a dig at the use or not use of the space bar.
Fair enough then

TyroSaysMeow · 07/05/2020 14:40

Lemonade, we know what trans means.

We know how all the trans lobby groups define it, and we know how people who self-describe as trans define it.

Under their definitions, feminist women automatically qualify.

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