Women and Apostasy

[NonnyMouse1337]

Has anyone watched Unorthodox?
It's a fictionalised short story of a young woman from an orthodox Jewish community who struggles with her place in such a high control religion and decides to leave. It's loosely based on a real woman's experience.

www.netflix.com/gb/title/81019069

I was curious to know if there were any women here who are religious apostates like myself.

I really enjoyed watching the series. It was gripping and emotional. I know very little about orthodox Jewish beliefs and practices - though I had heard about women having to wear wigs. I thought it was an urban myth or something!

Watching it also stirred up my own memories and feelings linked to apostasy. It reminded me of myself, the women in my community, the men as well, my atheism and feminism that developed from those experiences.

I'm of Indian origin and was raised as a Jehovah's Witness by my mum (patriarchy squared ) though I was lucky as my parents were relatively broad-minded and I enjoyed a middle-class expat life so I had opportunities which ultimately helped me escape the confines of cultural and religious upbringing and cult influences. (Dad wasn't a JW.)

Another film that deals with religious apostasy with a focus on women's experience is simply titled Apostasy. It's about the Jehovah's Witnesses.

www.amazon.co.uk/Apostasy-Daniel-Kokotajlo/dp/B07FYJVKC7?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

I was a bit of an emotional wreck for a few days after watching this one as it was quite close to the bone. I also watched it in a local cinema where most of the audience were also ex-JWs. There was a great Q&A with the director, and people shared their personal stories which reflected many of my own experiences and I was reduced to a sobbing mess.

Anyway I liked Unorthodox and Apostasy as both are female led and focuses on issues from a woman's point of view. It also shows the role of other women in such high control religious groups - some embrace it while others have resigned themselves to it as they have nowhere else to go - they are too old or don't have the means to do so and have invested too much in the community and faith. They provide the lifelong supporting role to the men in these communities - unacknowledged, unappreciated, undervalued.

I don't know where I'm going with this post as I'm just rambling. I'll post more later when I have some more time. I don't really know another South Asian or Middle Eastern woman in person who is a staunch atheist and a feminist. I'm aware of women out there who are feminists and campaigners. Many of those feminists might be of the lib fem type and we might disagree on a number of things (and agree on others for sure).
I know there are plenty of people like me out there, but sometimes I feel very alone and isolated.
There are many atheists where I now live, but none who were shaped by the sort of religious beliefs like mine. In fact, many had no religious upbringing whatsoever, which I kind of envy at times. Similarly for those who are feminists.

I feel there's so much baggage in being a religious apostate and it has shaped my life and will continue to influence my life in so many subtle ways - I cannot bring myself to wear a swimsuit, nevermind a bikini. When I watched Esty walk into the sea fully clothed, I could totally relate.

If you are an apostate, what's it been like for you and how has it shaped your feminism?

I finished watching Unorthodox at the weekend and I thought it was brilliant. I don't know much about the Orthodox Jews in NYC and how they live, I knew about the electricity thing and more about the men, I had no idea the women shaved their heads and wore wigs. What is the reasoning behind that?

I watched 'The Making Of' thing for the series, also on Netflix and it was fascinating, I might get the book.

I've been raised as agnostic really, with my father who is an atheist. The difference to me being that my father is actively against religion of any kind whereas I just don't believe but see how having a faith provides comfort. I did go to a Christian school though.

I'm not sure how this has impacted my feminism, it's done more for my support of battling climate change I think. It's an interesting question to discuss. I will have a think!

I am aware of this show, but I can't actually bring myself to watch it yet. I am ex-Mormon, and have been a member my entire life, up until a year ago.

I left after an incident of domestic violence with my ex, and at the time we were the very example of idyllic Mormon family life, so all of my community was shocked and expected me to forgive him immediately. I did not, and it made them uncomfortable, and as a result my entire support network fell away.

It turns out you can't just undo an entire lifetime of indoctrination and inculcation, and although I feel very happy with my choice, the pain I feel as a direct result of my upbringing and subsequent abusive marriage does linger.

I was raised in a cult. I can't shake that very easily, and I am still contacted by people trying to bring me back into the fold on a semi-regular basis (despite removing my name from the records of the church).

How has this informed my feminism? I became a feminist before I left the Mormons, and struggled mightily with the massive contradictions in world views that I held. I became close friends with other feminists, and eventually recognised that I couldn't live in two worlds. I had to choose; when I chose to live life on my terms, my feminist friends were there to support me. Being feminist changed my life and saved my life. It helped me get away from an abusive marriage and it's helped me recognise abusers in other areas of my life. It has given me strength and brought me into contact with many wonderful women.

Although I will always feel the effects of being raised Mormon, and probably feel echoes of being branded an 'apostate' as a result of leaving, I am very, very glad I managed to leave. Feminism made that possible.

Hi, Nonny.

Not much help, really, but I have a male friend who is an apostate (not sure if he uses the word, I think he calls himself an ex Muslim) Muslim, originally from Pakistan. He's also gender critical, and very supportive of women and feminism, for what it's worth!

I wonder if questioning and seeing the issues with a religious community/system of thinking is linked to or informs an inclination to not buy into things like 'gender identity' so easily. It's not easy to go against the stream of one's family, community and surroundings - I expect it requires and strengthens independence of thought.

Sorry I can't help more - it sounds like a difficult experience.

I had no idea the women shaved their heads and wore wigs. What is the reasoning behind that?

As I understand it, women's hair is deemed to be sensual and a source of temptation for men as it can inspire lust, in addition to the body.
It's why Muslim women wear hijabs.
The orthodox Jews tackle this by making all married women shave their hair and wear a wig.
Happy to be corrected though if someone else knows the religious explanation.

Women who are Jehovah's witnesses also have to cover their head in certain circumstances, but it's more to do with symbolic gestures about women expressing their acceptance of the authority of men and God when doing scriptural activities that are meant to be only carried out by men.

I haven't heard of the Making Of series .. is it the Making of a Murderer? Or are there other ones?

Due to my experiences I tend to be opposed to all forms of religion as I can see how it plays out when allowed free reign without criticism or constraints, although I understand it brings comfort to many people. It's like any ideology, really.

I'd be interested in knowing how it has shaped your views on climate change.

Lots of Orthodox women wear wigs to cover their own hair in public.

Never heard of shaving it off before.

Oh PerfectPretender I wish I could give you a big hug!!

I left the Jehovah's Witnesses behind me a number of years ago, although my mum is still one and tries to coax me back, but my leaving was very quiet and I cut off all ties and moved on over a period of years as I relocated to a different country.

I can't imagine what it's like to lose your entire community almost overnight, but you are extremely strong and brave for standing up for yourself and not accepting the domestic violence! And the guilt and manipulation to come back into the fold.

The first few years are really hard as you have to reframe your entire existence and beliefs and figure it all out for yourself as there's no handy set of laws and rules governing you anymore and it can be liberating and scary at the same time. I went through a period of being very depressed and angry and sad and just a mix of all sorts of thoughts and emotions... Felt betrayed and lied to all my life... Felt I had lost out on opportunities and experiences that come from not being raised in a cult!

I'm so glad you have found feminist friends who have supported your move away from being a Mormon and have given you strength to break away from the abusive people in your life.

It was my feminist and atheist leanings that helped me question my religious beliefs and the cult indoctrination, even though I didn't really know the words feminism and atheism and wouldn't have thought they applied to me. Like you, I couldn't justify the massive contradictions and inherent unfairness towards women that these belief systems impose. I'm too stubborn and opinionated to feel comfortable in being told in so many ways that I am inferior to a man and my sole purpose is to support my husband and the religious community.

Hello Scrimpshaw, it's good to know that your ex-Muslim friend is gender critical and supportive of feminism. I think some of the younger women (and men) who are ex-Muslim tend to only encounter the liberal / mainstream version of feminism and either jump on board or feel quite put off by it. I know I was very shocked and upset and disappointed with feminism when I came across Western feminists supporting things like the hijab, saying it was a personal choice and empowering. I could not understand how they could say something like that.

There was a lot of left wing and liberal hostility or indifference towards ex-Muslims because of their criticisms of Islam and the 'Muslim community' in general which used to be the darling of identity politics a few years ago.

In all honesty, gender identity ideology offends me like nothing else I have come across. I have disagreed with lots of ideas and positions and maybe felt angry or annoyed or irritated. But gender identity ideology is the first time in my life that I have felt truly offended and upset.
I have broken through all the gender norms imposed on me through religion and culture. It has taken great inner strength, resilience, determination, self reflection and critical thinking to accept that I am and will always be a woman no matter what sexist stereotypes and roles I reject.
That a man can claim that adopting some of these sexist stereotypes is what makes him a woman just gets my hackles up like nothing else!

I do not consider myself an apostate, but certain members of my extended family would, because I married a non-Jew. My Orthodox extended family were able to accept my family (parents and siblings) living an assimilated Western lifestyle, because we were brought up firmly Jewish: a strong Jewish education and a kosher, festival-observing lifestyle. If we didn't observe every festival in every detail/drove on the Sabbath/wore skimpy shorts/swam in mixed pools/went on dates, they turned a blind eye. When they came to us or we went to them we modified our practice so that they would not feel uncomfortable.

But marrying out of the faith was a step too far for them.

Ask, and I'll do my best to answer. There are more religious feminist Jewish MNers, but I don't know whether they would in any way identify with the aspect of feminism and apostasy.

I also send hugs to you Perfect. I can only imagine what you went through, and are indeed still going through.

Nonny the 'making of' thing should come up on the Netflix thing, maybe under trailers?
It's just the behind the scenes story of how the show came to be made.

I thought Anika Molnar played Etsy brilliantly and I hope she is recognised for her work someday. I wonder who else they casted, I really liked that it was an original cast and the Moishe character was interesting in the juxtaposition with Yanke who was a 'good boy' and did all that was asked of him by his faith.

BTW the shaving thing is a perfect storm of anti-Semitism, misogyny and patriarchy. It is only practiced in streams of Judaism that developed in Eastern Europe. Covering one's head is considered a sign of modesty and of humbleness for both men and women in Judaism. On top of this, a woman's hair is considered sensual and beautiful, and should therefore only be seen by her husband once she is married. But that just leads to covering, not shaving.

My understanding is that in the 16th century the Polish nobility practiced droit de seigneur, ie they could demand to sleep with any bride on her wedding night. So it became the practice among Jews in the little villages where they were vulnerable to the local squire's fancies, to shave the bride's head immediately after the ceremony in order to make her less attractive to the squire. But, to avoid humiliating her, she would also be given as realistic and beautiful a wig as possible.

Afterwards, she might let her hair grow again, and simply wear a scarf. But she rarely let her hair grow very long, because the wig would be uncomfortable over long hair. As a wig is a huge investment, she would have kept it for 'best'.

Over the generations, a practice that evolved out of desperation became established norm, even when it was no longer necessary. Men decided that a married woman with long hair was immodest - even if her husband was the only man who saw it. Other women would see it and could be influenced.

Not all Orthodox women shave their heads, and not all wear wigs (though all cover outside the home and among unrelated men).

Apologies if this is a very trivial question on a serious thread, but I'm a bit fascinated.

Do the orthodox Jewish women have to make sure their wig is dowdy and unattractive, because if it was more attractive than their normal hair it would defeat the object?

I'm not an apostate (my family are technically Christian but don't take it too seriously), but was raised in multiple countries where religion was a very strong force and have been fairly disgusted with the way the liberal left treats apostate ex-Muslim women if they're a bit too overtly feminist. There are all kinds of layers of racism and sexism going on there, imo, but the end result is a number of very brave women being thrown under the bus, and I've found myself at loggerheads with people who don't understand why those women are doing and saying the things they're doing and saying. My own feminism has been deeply influenced by growing up in what even the most ardent sexism deniers would generally be forced to admit are religious patriarchies on a state level. What tends to happen at a certain point, ime, is the creeping realization that the difference between those sorts of very overt patriarchies and the more subtle ones is one of degree rather than type.

I wonder if it would be possible to find other women who you could connect with in any online spaces that exist for apostates by sort of working around the men. I guess what I mean is, if those spaces exist and women aren't openly expressing feminist ideas in them I would wonder if that would be because of the influence that men would be exerting on those spaces. Women who feel lonely and in need of some kind of community might be willing to bite their tongues in order not to be cast out by men who've shaken off the religion but not the patriarchy that was entwined with it.

Bizarrely most religious Jewish women have wigs that are reasonably attractive! Generally you can tell they are wigs but usually at least as nice as their own hair. I don’t understand either. Although a lot of modern ones cover their hair with scarves rather than wigs as then it’s clear you are covering!

Thanks for your contribution, PikesPeaked. I find it interesting that many Jewish people manage to balance their cultural and religious beliefs with a more secular / Western lifestyle. I've seen some who are quite comfortable saying they are Jewish as well as atheist.

I think it's easier to hold on to the traditions and customs of an ethnic or religious group if there's a relaxed approach towards people's adherence. I've noticed friends and others who were raised with a less heavy handed approach in terms of religion or culture are more likely to view themselves as still part of the religion. I think it's easier for them to see the positives of religion since their overall experience has been a positive one without coercion.

Thanks OhHolyJesus, I'm going to look that up tonight.
I really enjoyed the original cast too. There are Moishes and Yankes wherever you go!

Cheers for the fascinating explanation PikesPeaked! The shaved heads make more sense now... And yes simply covering your head is more logical than shaving and a wig... And a very pretty wig, no less!

Judaism places far greater weight on what you do than on what you believe. So it's relatively easy to be an atheist Jew! The ultra-Orthodox are so focused on fulfilling as many commandments as possible that they take to extremes this emphasis on what you do. They become ritualistic. Judaism also places emphasis on mindfulness, that you should fully engage with the moment and truly appreciate god's gifts. A person who leaves Orthodox Judaism may find that they bring that same mindfulness to the new things in their life. And yet, much of the ritual behaviour still brings comfort and grounding - perhaps because they are now actively choosing to engage with it, rather than having it imposed upon them.

When men decide the rules, women will always be second class, no matter how 'honoured' they are, no matter that they are freed from certain religious (ritualistic?) responsibilities. Imagine leaving that patriarchal community, discovering your own worth, and bringing that energy and focus to your feminism!

I read a very interesting book a while ago, about a man who left a super-orthodox sect (Skverers). It touches on what the female experience is, but was a really eye-opening description of what the culture is like. It's called All who go do not return, by Shulem Deen.

I don't want to spoil it for anyone else who might be drawn to watch this so I won't comment too much about the programme, but the mother in law came across as very much the matriarch, Esty's older sister too, the women weren't without power but it was only the power granted to them by the men.

So much was focused around fertility and the ability to have babies and whilst I wasn't surprised, I was surprised at young woman who was sent to help Esty. She was pretty candid but not helpful.

I really hope they do a second series, it was too short and I'm invested now!

There's a documentary on netflix called one of us about people leaving Jewish sects.
I was quite surprised how similar the stories in it are to some of unorthodox.

Hi, I'm FloralBunting and I glob on about my personal experience of leaving religious patriarchy all the time, but I'm actually trying to cut down on MN time at the mo, so I shan't be engaging too much with this right now. But I'd like to follow/find the discussion and for some reason that seems to work best if I post on a thread.

Have at it xx

I just wanted to say thank you for posting this thread, I have nothing to add except to say how inspiring it is to hear what you’ve overcome (and be educated )

I thought Unorthodox was a riveting mini series. I could totally understand why Esty found it claustrophobic.

It is a religion that has always fascinated me. It seems a little incongruous to say this, but I was fairly well versed of the rituals of Orthodox Judaism as I went to a ?progressive RC school and I think they felt that we were so completely indoctrinated by the age of 15, that they could risk exposing us to other religions, which we studied for our GCSE.

So I was aware of the shaving of the hair, and the rituals of cleansing. Also around food, not just certain food stuffs that must be cooked separately (kitchens often contain two sets of pans etc to accommodate this) but rules regarding menstruation and food prep.

A few years ago I remember reading an article or it could have even been a documentary regarding Jewish wig makers being considered the best in the world. The item was about women who had lost their hair due to chemo, and the wigs made by this Jewish Company were amazing. The women were so emotional about being gifted these perfect wigs. I wondered if the men began to understand what emotional trauma their wives were caused by this ancient tradition.

It’s taken me about an hour to type this, so I apologise in advance if someone far more knowledgable has already posted similar, or much more accurately.

Thanks for the suggestions, TheProdigalKittensReturn. Oddly enough, I used to be part of an ex-Muslim forum many years ago. There was a good sense of camaraderie between us women, but over the years we've all drifted away towards our separate lives. I should probably take a look and see what it's like these days.

I think I started to step away after the suicide of a couple of well known posters. I needed the space and distance from it all. That's another aspect of apostasy that is rarely acknowledged - the impact on mental health when your entire world falls apart - no matter how hard you try, you just can't bring yourself to 'believe' anymore, the disappointment and pain from family members, the shunning, the community gossip, the feeling that you've failed and let your loved ones down, some lose contact with or custody of their children, and in some extreme cases threats of violence or death. Sometimes young women are at risk of being taken back to Pakistan, Bangladesh etc and married off to some guy in the hope it will 'sort them out' and not bring dishonour and shame to the family.
Many therapists or social workers would not quite grasp the significance of these issues - they assume it's the usual sort of family disagreements and difference of opinion that you get in more non-religious households, like maybe saying you no longer want to attend Sunday school or something.

I would like to think awareness has improved since then.

When men decide the rules, women will always be second class, no matter how 'honoured' they are, no matter that they are freed from certain religious (ritualistic?) responsibilities.

Very true.

It's called All who go do not return, by Shulem Deen.

I'd never heard of that one, StrangeLookingParasite. It's great to see more stories being published and opening a window into what goes on in these sort of sects and groups.

I absolutely understand any woman needing to escape from extremist and misogynist sects and cults, but I feel it’s sad if they throw the baby out with the bath water, so to speak, and become atheists.
Normal mainstream Christianity is the antithesis of controlling or sexist.
Jesus willingly suffered torture and death to demonstrate His love for humanity. He made no demands, only asking that we love one another and love God. He rescued a woman about to be stoned to death for adultery, He made a woman (Mary of Magdala) the first witness of His resurrection. My own church has had women priests for over 50 years, and twice had women as national leader.
Patriarchal men have twisted religion for centuries to impose their own power structures and oppress women - please don’t let the bastards stop you having a loving relationship with God, in your own feminist way.