Women and Apostasy

[NonnyMouse1337]

Has anyone watched Unorthodox?
It's a fictionalised short story of a young woman from an orthodox Jewish community who struggles with her place in such a high control religion and decides to leave. It's loosely based on a real woman's experience.

www.netflix.com/gb/title/81019069

I was curious to know if there were any women here who are religious apostates like myself.

I really enjoyed watching the series. It was gripping and emotional. I know very little about orthodox Jewish beliefs and practices - though I had heard about women having to wear wigs. I thought it was an urban myth or something!

Watching it also stirred up my own memories and feelings linked to apostasy. It reminded me of myself, the women in my community, the men as well, my atheism and feminism that developed from those experiences.

I'm of Indian origin and was raised as a Jehovah's Witness by my mum (patriarchy squared ) though I was lucky as my parents were relatively broad-minded and I enjoyed a middle-class expat life so I had opportunities which ultimately helped me escape the confines of cultural and religious upbringing and cult influences. (Dad wasn't a JW.)

Another film that deals with religious apostasy with a focus on women's experience is simply titled Apostasy. It's about the Jehovah's Witnesses.

www.amazon.co.uk/Apostasy-Daniel-Kokotajlo/dp/B07FYJVKC7?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

I was a bit of an emotional wreck for a few days after watching this one as it was quite close to the bone. I also watched it in a local cinema where most of the audience were also ex-JWs. There was a great Q&A with the director, and people shared their personal stories which reflected many of my own experiences and I was reduced to a sobbing mess.

Anyway I liked Unorthodox and Apostasy as both are female led and focuses on issues from a woman's point of view. It also shows the role of other women in such high control religious groups - some embrace it while others have resigned themselves to it as they have nowhere else to go - they are too old or don't have the means to do so and have invested too much in the community and faith. They provide the lifelong supporting role to the men in these communities - unacknowledged, unappreciated, undervalued.

I don't know where I'm going with this post as I'm just rambling. I'll post more later when I have some more time. I don't really know another South Asian or Middle Eastern woman in person who is a staunch atheist and a feminist. I'm aware of women out there who are feminists and campaigners. Many of those feminists might be of the lib fem type and we might disagree on a number of things (and agree on others for sure).
I know there are plenty of people like me out there, but sometimes I feel very alone and isolated.
There are many atheists where I now live, but none who were shaped by the sort of religious beliefs like mine. In fact, many had no religious upbringing whatsoever, which I kind of envy at times. Similarly for those who are feminists.

I feel there's so much baggage in being a religious apostate and it has shaped my life and will continue to influence my life in so many subtle ways - I cannot bring myself to wear a swimsuit, nevermind a bikini. When I watched Esty walk into the sea fully clothed, I could totally relate.

If you are an apostate, what's it been like for you and how has it shaped your feminism?

Feminism is a bit like religion. It passes down principles and then you try and live your life accordingly. It's almost like, it will save you from the evil of the patriarchy and the internalised misogyny in your heart if you just devote yourself to studying the feminist classics and banish sexist influences from your life as much as you can. Or is that just me

I guess that is how it might appear - if you approach it from the outside....and think you have to adhere to certain ideas - denoted by terms such as patriarchy and misogyny - without question.

No political ideology or system, or way of thinking about life should be rigid and without question, as far as I'm concerned. Once that happens you are stuck with hundred year old traditions and behaviours and sets of responses which have little connection to contemporary reality orthe situation you mat find yourself in.

I do, however, agree that certain strands of feminist thinking can be overly fixed and insistent on past 'truths'.....for example, that all sex based differences in outcome are because of internalised misogyny or patriarchal oppression. in fact, getting a little weary of term 'patriarchy' these days......It is often used automatically, without thought, and as casually as any other religious trope.

For me feminism is simply about prioritising the female experience; a view and approach which centres women and girls, and their experience.

Covering the hair as I personally interpret it is about reserving your beauty for your husband

It may well be that to some extent, for some people.....but covering the head is also a symbol of submission to God. A way of reminding oneself that God is head; not to let the ego get out of control...that personal power and glory and fulfilment comes through God...not through one's own desires.

I had a brief interlude as an evangelical christian in my early 20's......and that is certainly what it represented for me. It was not so much about the hair and sexuality, as about obedience to God, about spiritual humility.

The perverse thing for me, was that i simply wouldn't wear a head covering in church ( when the other women wore one): when it was 'expected' of women...when it became more about subservience to man-made rules and social convention rather than to one's own relationship with Christ, but only outside in the world. I actually experienced wearing the head covering as a great liberation.

I never really fitted into my church ( and i've always resisted fitting into any group), as a I tend to automatically distrust, and distance myself, from social groupings...as what tends to happen is that the individual ends up following social consensus rather than one's own heart or integrity.

And yet I've spoken to Muslims who have explicitly told me that women have to cover their hair to avoid inciting men to rape. And teenage Muslim women who have worn a niqab (full face covering veil) specifically because their parents and non-Muslims find it shocking

Yes, i think that is certainly true of some middle class and educated muslim women...wearing the niqab is a confrontational act; and one which as women they feel empowered by. It is more about their own personal power in a society which finds the full face covering shocking, than about religious piety.

In day-to-day life I do not cover my hair for anything other than practical purposes, eg a sunhat, cycling helmet or to keep my hair out of my cooking. If I walk through Golders Green or get on a bus in Jerusalem with my hair uncovered, I reject utterly any suggestion that I may incite men to lustful thoughts or actions. They have the choice to look away or think about something else.

When I light Sabbath candles, or participate in certain synagogue services, I do cover my head. It may be a token gesture, as my hair remains uncovered, but in this case I am not being modest before men, but before Deity. Covering my head is a grounding action, a signal to me that I am now stepping away from the mundane and focusing on something entirely else. Sometimes I wear a hat, sometimes a scarf, but more and more often I wear a kippa, the little head-covering that is normally reserved for men. Why is it reserved for men even among the non-Orthodox, non-hair-hiders? No reason. Tradition. Some traditions are worth preserving, especially when they bring joy. But one that merely excludes women? Nope.

Head shaving is only practiced by Satmar Hasidic Jews, as far as I know. It's a fringe practice, no pun intended, even amongst the most orthodox.

There are religious Jewish feminists who have a lot to say about the impact of modesty practices in Judaism, who are worth a look if that's an area of interest. I follow a woman on Twitter called Shoshanna Keats-Jaskoll. She's part of an organisation helping chained women in Israel (women whose husbands won't grant a religious divorce). She has spoken a lot about religious Jewish women having their images erased in the name of modesty, and how it's an increasing problem amongst the Orthodox.

blogs.timesofisrael.com/not-everyone-wants-her-face-plastered-on-a-billboard/

In the documentary one of us, the ultra orthodox Jewish school rub out the girls faces in school books. The cartoons of boys are 'permitted'.
That was one of the most shocking aspects for me.
The girls are erased with black marker.
Hair covering is very interesting, the wigs especially seem like a really strange, to me, way of getting around it.
As a pp said there are some Muslim women that fully cover as a political/ shock act and that increased after 9/11,
immigration from different areas has also had an effect, when i was at school only one girl wore hijab in primary, now many do including tiny girls in reception.
Why would a 4 year old child need to cover her hair?
I dress modestly most of the time, im not religious but prefer to have my chest and arms fully covered, i cover my hair sometimes also. Its how im most comfortable and im glad i get to make that choice.

RJnomore1

Maybe you can answer my question. If a converted JW is married to an non jw,where should she sleep?Does she sleep in a separate room?Is there any laws or traditions to how and where she should sleep?

Babdoc I'm not an atheist because I had a 'bad experience' with religion. This is a common assumption made by people. I'm an atheist because (all) religion makes zero sense to me and I don't / can't get anything positive out of it.
I think sooner or later I would have figured out that atheism is my default position. Being brought up in a high control religious group like the Jehovah's Witnesses simply accelerated that process because I have always been the type to ask a lot of questions.

I'm a very introspective person and I have always loved logic. I was brought up to believe the Jehovah's Witnesses were the 'truth'. (They actually refer to it as The Truth. If a JW bumps into a new JW they might ask them 'So were you born in the truth or did you find it later in life?')
When I started to realise the flaws and inconsistencies in the belief system, the lies and deliberate covering up by the religious leaders, my next reaction was - well if this religion isn't the 'truth', then I guess I'll need to find out which one is....

I've always had a deep fascination for reading and learning about old religions and mythologies - the Egyptians, the Greeks and Romans, Norse, Celts, Aboriginal Australian, Native American, Hinduism etc. It is a wonderful insight into the human psyche and the evolution of our collective consciousness.

And it hit me one day! The vast majority of people follow their religion for no real reason other than they were born into it and their parents told them (either explicitly or implicitly) it was true and that's how things are done. That's it. We are mostly creatures of habit and socialisation.

If my mum's great grandparents hadn't converted to Christianity, specifically Catholicism, I would still be a Hindu and think that Hinduism is the 'right' thing to follow and how much meaning it brings to my life. If I was born in a different time and place, I'd be extolling the virtues and greatness of Zeus or Osiris.
I don't know if someone else might have had a complete mental breakdown at this epiphany, but it actually gave me quite a sense of peace in a way that my search for meaning via religion couldn't. The sheer simplicity of it is beautiful.

There are many commonalities in Christian mythology with other belief systems because that's how religions evolve - a melting pot of ideas and stories and superstitions. Individuals who may have existed become deified when legends spring up around them and contemporary myths are superimposed on their lives and sufficient time passes so that any veracity becomes obscured.
Being born of a virgin, being a saviour, resurrection, the cross, miracles etc etc - these are sprinkled across mythologies and not unique to Christianity in any way. The only reason we don't offer supplication to the pantheon of Egyptian or Assyrian gods is simply because they are no longer in fashion or part of our dominant cultural narrative.

Fascinating discussion. I skimmed through this article on the BBC website yesterday, which seems related. www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-51928077

It's a first-hand account by a transwoman who grew up in a Hasidic community in New York. There were a few red flags for me in the description of Abby's upbringing. 'My dad is a rabbi, and having a son was a big deal. He would always tell me that after five girls he had almost given up on having a boy, and how much it meant to him. I almost felt bad for him throughout my childhood - a feeling of: "I'm so sorry, but I can't give you what you want." '

'The Hasidic community is the most gender-segregated society I've ever known or heard about'

And so on. Poor kid. In a less authoritarian, dogma-driven community there might have been a chance Abby could have seen that it's possible to develop your own personality and dress any way you like, without that in any way affecting what sex you are, given that that's fixed.

As the atheist Johnathan Miller said: "I'm not a jew. Just jew-ish. Don;t want to go the whole hog."

I can get on board with that! 😄

TheProdigalKittensReturn that must have been so awful for your friend! 😖
When a friend of mine was getting married, she had some strong disagreements with her dad (who has heart issues) and her mum literally said, if he dies of a heart attack it will be your fault. Surprise, surprise she ended up doing what her dad wanted. It never ceases to amaze me how many parents and families think it's ok to say these sort of things. So much emotional abuse and blackmailing, and women are more susceptible because we're taught to 'always be kind'. Bah!!

I watched this series and found it fascinating and horrifying in equal measure. As in many cultures/religions, women were very much secondary to men and this really doesn't sit well with me.

I'm not anti-god, but I think many religions could adapt with the times to make men and women equal partners in their spiritual lives/journeys.

Being born of a virgin, being a saviour, resurrection, the cross, miracles etc etc - these are sprinkled across mythologies and not unique to Christianity in any way. The only reason we don't offer supplication to the pantheon of Egyptian or Assyrian gods is simply because they are no longer in fashion or part of our dominant cultural narrative

Well, yes.....all religions employ symbolism that in most cases has evolved from earlier belief systems or practices....The point, for me, is that there is, in most people, a need for meaning and faith in a higher power.

These days many people make a religion out of science, or scientific method.They look to science to offer hope and a sense that human life can evolve and progress. Many very vocal atheists sound almost religiously so. If by religion we mean a system of structured thought and belief, which revolves around certain methods, and provides a feeling of comfort or security to the person adopting it.

I grew up with an atheist father...who toyed with the belief that God was really an extra-terrestrial and that God " drove a flying saucer" ( my Dad loves science fiction). Neither parent was religious.......and I wasn't christened. However, I have a natural inclination for mysticism...and found my way to sitting, alone, in the local church, and finding something in that that I was looking for.

The problem for me is in organised religion, which most often seems to be more about social conformity than faith. I've always resisted that.

As someone who had friends of many religious and spiritual persuasions ( buddhists, hinduism practitioners of one form or other, meditators, yogis and so on) it was most interesting to see their reactions and responses when I became a Christian. They mostly freaked out and didn't know how to del with it,

I wasn't trying to convert anyone; just shared my intensely healing experience with them......they would back away.......and retreat into their adopted practices or belief systems ( mostly adopted from other cultures). At the same time there was no way i could have told the people at my church that I had such friends...they'd have been praying over me......

One week I would be camping at a bible week in Builth Wells; the next I'd be at a dance/healing/astrology camp. I became an expert at translation...since no-one else could understand, or be prepared to, understand my language.

And god doesn't have to be personified or authoritarian. 'God' can be your personal level of spirituality, of connection with that which is more than the sum of our understanding.

pikespeaked in that case, why not dispense with the notion of god entirely? That's my approach. I am a good person in spite of religion. There are a lot of things in the Old and New Testament that are so, so wrong and it made me very uncomfortable when I used to read it as a believer. That was actually my conscience telling me that what god supposedly did or commanded was wrong and unethical.

We can learn lots of wonderful things about life, love and doing the right thing from the Harry Potter books or Lord of the Rings. Or by reading the works of Rumi or Confucius. Intellectual men and women have existed throughout human history and our mythologies and stories are a way to preserve and pass on collective wisdoms and ideas. Why not glean profound truths from the breadth and depth of human history and literature? It made no sense to me to uphold one religious worldview above others simply because that's what I was brought up to believe in.

When humanity was in its infancy and we were very much at the mercy of nature and natural forces like other animals, we literally worshipped the sun or fire or thunder and so on. As we understood the world around us better and found ways to manipulate it to our advantage, we then decided that it wasn't fire or the sun that were gods to be worshipped, but instead there was a god of fire, a god of water, thunder, goddess of fertility etc. The superpowers of these gods became fairly complex over time as our technologies and civilizations developed.
Monotheism created a sort of superman figure - the superpowers of all the gods concentrated in one being that could trump all the others. I can see the appeal in that. Why make sacrifices and prayers separately to a god of wealth, a god of health, a goddess of fertility and so on, when you just have one being with all the combined superpowers that you ask for help?
Nowadays the trend is to say that god is within us or works through us... Or even that we are gods ourselves. It's curious that our conception of god changes as our ability to interact with our environment also changes.

This is a really fascinating book on atheism and belief, though I've only just started it the arguments are beautifully eloquent.

www.theguardian.com/books/2018/apr/11/seven-types-atheism-john-gray-review-atheist-believer-material-world

RumbaswithPumbaas the point of religion is to control people. That's not necessarily a bad thing. We are social mammals and it's easier to bring people together through some sense of shared purpose or identity or belief. Religion has been a useful tool for this long before governments and nations were established. Shamans, high priests and holy men wielded power, respect and authority because believers looked up to them for guidance.

The inevitable path for any belief system or ideology as it becomes more organised, widespread and systemic is to become more entrenched and inflexible and a bit dominating. But there is a balancing act between stability and becoming irrelevant, hence successful religions like Christianity have absorbed all sorts of pagan traditions to appeal more widely, but also has been tamed from inside and outside into loosening its grip and mellowing as it evolves into a more benign and mature religion. It's selling a product to the masses like anyone else and has to adapt to stay relevant in people's lives.

I’m also struck by the idea of apostasy not being about trying to encouraging someone to return to faith for the good of their own soul,

Except that is exactly how Jehovah's Witnesses view shunning. It is a gentle, loving way to encourage someone to return to the faith for the good of their own soul. There's no violence or threats. Just a polite refusal to engage with or associate with the apostate. It helps them re-evaluate their position and think about what's important and encourages them to repent and realise that the organisation is the right place for them to be.

Cults are incredibly common..... It's an exaggeration of common human behaviour, really - othering and herd mentality, confirmation bias, etc. (And cults don't have to have anything to do with a god or gods, fwiw).

Yes, great point ScrimpshawTheSecond - it really is an exaggeration of the normal spectrum of human behaviour. Some of these groups start out with good intentions or grand ambitions.

There was a really interesting article I read a while ago... Wish I could find it now... But some people in Britain were persuaded to visit some sort of commune in Denmark I think... The people there all seemed really friendly and nice and had all sorts of plans to help others ... But there were some disturbing glimpses of certain things not being asked or questioned. The guy who wrote the article said he felt uncomfortable and was glad to have left after a few days or a week. And he always wondered what had become of them. These sort of things are everywhere and it's so easy to fall into them, especially if you are vulnerable and looking for a sense of purpose.

Absolutely, NonnyMouse, no reason whatsoever. You have to live your own best life. I don't say that religion of whatever form must be part of that, just that an apostate doesn't have to discard it completely.

To my mind - and, yes, my world-view is strongly influenced by my Judaism - the most important thing is to treat others as you would wish to be treated. A person who treats others with dignity and compassion has a moral code that I can respect.

I watched and read Unorthodox and subsequently listened to a podcast interview with Deborah Feldman. She made the point that the religious far-right in Israel will soon take over secular liberal politics and Israel will become like a religious Islamic state. This is the political trend there.

Bad news for women if true. The interviewer, a British Jewish man from Birmingham, who seemed to consider himself quite clued up on global Jewish culture, seemed utterly unaware of this.

Nonny, you mention not knowing many other feminists of Asian/ME background. I recommend the wonderful Maryam Namazie, an ex-Muslim feminist who campaigns against the acceptance of sharia law into the UK.
onelawforall.org.uk

What a distortion to make someone believe that God’s approval would rest on a parent shunning their child. It goes against every instinct to love and protect and sounds gaslighty to me.

RumbaswithPumbaas (love your username by the way) - it's amazing how certain beliefs and ideas can really screw up people to the point where they abandon or flip around basic human instincts like a parent's desire to love and protect their child.

There's something worse than shunning though. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that blood transfusions are wrong. Parents genuinely believe it's better to allow their children to risk death rather than let doctors give them a blood transfusion. Mind you, it's the sort of thing that's easy for JWs to talk about until they are put in such a position. It's actually terrible for the parents to have to make that decision, but they genuinely believe they are doing the right thing and leaving their child's life in god's hand. Even if they feel tempted to allow a transfusion, they know they will be committing a sin and will be disciplined for it. Many times the 'congregation elders' will turn up at the hospital to ensure the adult or child who is admitted will not be given a transfusion (although many countries forbid such practices against children and the State can intervene).

I remember when my mum's friend came over one evening and was crying her heart out in anguish because her little girl was diagnosed with leukemia and she knew the 'right' thing was to ensure the doctors didn't give her daughter blood transfusions or any treatment that included blood. Although I think there were other methods that either didn't use blood or only used certain components of blood that might have been deemed to be ok. Yet the effectiveness of such methods weren't as good as conventional treatments.
It was heartbreaking to see. She was clearly terrified of her child dying but also conflicted and scared that the doctors would force a transfusion and cause her child to have committed a grave sin. I no longer believed in the JW teachings by this point, so I had to shut myself in my bedroom in case I said something. I didn't want to make a difficult situation more stressful for her.

what's a religion versus what's a cult

A religion is just a cult plus time and numbers. That's all. Christianity was a cult to begin with, a messianic leader, and handful of disciples. But give it a couple of thousand years and millions of members, and it takes on the faux respectability of a religion.

Thanks nonny

I wasn’t sure if the blood transfusion thing was a myth but clearly not. That must have been really hard to hear.