Women and Apostasy

[NonnyMouse1337]

Has anyone watched Unorthodox?
It's a fictionalised short story of a young woman from an orthodox Jewish community who struggles with her place in such a high control religion and decides to leave. It's loosely based on a real woman's experience.

www.netflix.com/gb/title/81019069

I was curious to know if there were any women here who are religious apostates like myself.

I really enjoyed watching the series. It was gripping and emotional. I know very little about orthodox Jewish beliefs and practices - though I had heard about women having to wear wigs. I thought it was an urban myth or something!

Watching it also stirred up my own memories and feelings linked to apostasy. It reminded me of myself, the women in my community, the men as well, my atheism and feminism that developed from those experiences.

I'm of Indian origin and was raised as a Jehovah's Witness by my mum (patriarchy squared ) though I was lucky as my parents were relatively broad-minded and I enjoyed a middle-class expat life so I had opportunities which ultimately helped me escape the confines of cultural and religious upbringing and cult influences. (Dad wasn't a JW.)

Another film that deals with religious apostasy with a focus on women's experience is simply titled Apostasy. It's about the Jehovah's Witnesses.

www.amazon.co.uk/Apostasy-Daniel-Kokotajlo/dp/B07FYJVKC7?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

I was a bit of an emotional wreck for a few days after watching this one as it was quite close to the bone. I also watched it in a local cinema where most of the audience were also ex-JWs. There was a great Q&A with the director, and people shared their personal stories which reflected many of my own experiences and I was reduced to a sobbing mess.

Anyway I liked Unorthodox and Apostasy as both are female led and focuses on issues from a woman's point of view. It also shows the role of other women in such high control religious groups - some embrace it while others have resigned themselves to it as they have nowhere else to go - they are too old or don't have the means to do so and have invested too much in the community and faith. They provide the lifelong supporting role to the men in these communities - unacknowledged, unappreciated, undervalued.

I don't know where I'm going with this post as I'm just rambling. I'll post more later when I have some more time. I don't really know another South Asian or Middle Eastern woman in person who is a staunch atheist and a feminist. I'm aware of women out there who are feminists and campaigners. Many of those feminists might be of the lib fem type and we might disagree on a number of things (and agree on others for sure).
I know there are plenty of people like me out there, but sometimes I feel very alone and isolated.
There are many atheists where I now live, but none who were shaped by the sort of religious beliefs like mine. In fact, many had no religious upbringing whatsoever, which I kind of envy at times. Similarly for those who are feminists.

I feel there's so much baggage in being a religious apostate and it has shaped my life and will continue to influence my life in so many subtle ways - I cannot bring myself to wear a swimsuit, nevermind a bikini. When I watched Esty walk into the sea fully clothed, I could totally relate.

If you are an apostate, what's it been like for you and how has it shaped your feminism?

I've seen some who are quite comfortable saying they are Jewish as well as atheist.

Of course you can be a jewish atheist. Being jewish is a matter of matrilineal heredity.

As the atheist Johnathan Miller said: "I'm not a jew. Just jew-ish. Don;t want to go the whole hog."

Many therapists or social workers would not quite grasp the significance of these issues - they assume it's the usual sort of family disagreements and difference of opinion that you get in more non-religious households, like maybe saying you no longer want to attend Sunday school or something.

Yep. I have an old friend whose mother threatened to starve herself to death if she married outside the religion. Didn't do it in the end, but it was a genuine threat that she couldn't just brush off the way a lot of people expected her to do. Enmeshed families and the threat of losing them are part of what keeps a lot of people who wish they could leave from doing so.

Patriarchal men have twisted religion for centuries to impose their own power structures and oppress women - please don’t let the bastards stop you having a loving relationship with God, in your own feminist way.

Strongly agree.

And god doesn't have to be personified or authoritarian. 'God' can be your personal level of spirituality, of connection with that which is more than the sum of our understanding. 'God' and the ethics of faith form the basis of your moral code, something that you take away with you when you leave your faith. You don't need to believe that only those who accept Jesus will enter heaven, for example, in order to practice "love thy neighbour as thyself", if treating people with kindness and compassion is important to you.

Babdoc thank you for that, as a Christian too, I’ve similarly found in exploring feminism, a neat fit with the behaviour, character and teaching of Jesus. I have been struck that following him is always a matter of choice and consent.... come to me all who are burdened... I am gentle and humble in heart... for my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

Any organised religion that seeks to control or coerce people is a system created by man. Any religious system that would brush child abuse etc under the carpet for the “greater good” of the organisation can not be modelled on a loving God. It strikes me that Jesus would consider this all Pharisee behaviour which he always called out in the strongest terms.

I’m also struck by the idea of apostasy not being about trying to encouraging someone to return to faith for the good of their own soul, but outrage at their refusal to be controlled, and the worry that it will destabilise the conformity of others if much of the religious community is a construct of self interest and fear. It has hallmarks of trying to leave any abusive relationship.

I also see some parallels in the outrage of apostasy in the venom aimed at those who will not believe the prevailing gender ideology and the idea of policing the thoughts and beliefs of others.

I also see some parallels in the outrage of apostasy in the venom aimed at those who will not believe the prevailing gender ideology and the idea of policing the thoughts and beliefs of others.

Notice that some of the most vicious stuff is aimed at those who've left gender ideology behind, or who're questioning it? That's not a coincidence.

(We're kind of getting into what's a religion versus what's a cult territory here too.)

I think all cults, whether religious or secular, share certain traits. They all exert rigid control, demand total submission, forbid heretical thinking and severely punish or cast out anyone who objects.
The TRAs fit the mould beautifully! Note their savage criticism of their own allies, who are forced into humiliating online apologies for transgressions such as inadvertent “misgendering” (correct sexing), their recital of mantras such as TWAW rather than engage in honest debate, their witch hunts and threats of violence (or actual violence against elderly feminists at rallies) etc.
Religious cults that do this must sadden God beyond measure - to see His love for all humanity twisted and used as a weapon against women, or to extort money and power. The leaders of such cults may have temporary power on earth, but I really wouldn’t want to be in their position when they stand before God at their death, and have to account to Him for their lives.
And as a PP said, yes, I think Christ would view them in the same way as the Pharisees.

And like any abusive relationship, the time when you're trying to leave and directly after you have is the most dangerous point and the point at which the most pressure will be applied.

what's a religion versus what's a cult

Cults are incredibly common. They're usually seen as these odd outliers - in fact I think very many small congregations, groups and schools display cultish behaviour and patterns of behaviour. It's an exaggeration of common human behaviour, really - othering and herd mentality, confirmation bias, etc. (And cults don't have to have anything to do with a god or gods, fwiw).

The most important question is "Why?"

If you are not allowed to ask "Why?", or if the answer is circular, you are in a cult.

the mother in law came across as very much the matriarch, Esty's older sister too, the women weren't without power but it was only the power granted to them by the men.

Yes, there are similar dynamics in many South Asian families. There can be a very domineering, overbearing mother-in-law who makes life really difficult for the wife, while the husband always takes the side of his mum and rarely enforces boundaries on how much his mum can or should interfere in his relationship with his wife. I've seen most of my friends from school having to deal with this.

It does give such older women a sense of power and control over some of the family dynamics. However, as you say whatever 'power' they are perceived to have is only due to the patriarchal structures permitting it as long as they stick to family issues that don't ultimately challenge or undermine the authority and overall power of the men.

There's a documentary on netflix called one of us about people leaving Jewish sects.

Cheers for that blubellsarebells. I'll put it on my list. I find I have to watch these sort of programmes with suitable gaps between them otherwise it gets a bit depressing!

Hope you are finding the discussions on this thread interesting, FloralBunting.

Sorry for the slow responses. I'm enjoying reading everyone's contributions to the thread as it's all interesting.

RumbaswithPumbaas I'm very lucky that I haven't had to deal with any threats or stressful emotional blackmail. There was the psychological fall out that is inevitable when you lose your faith, but thankfully I still pursued my higher education and focused on getting a job and so on. JWs are very much discouraged from pursuing higher education and taught that being stuck in low paid jobs is a good thing because then you are dedicating more time to God and worship and not immersing yourself in this evil system which is controlled by Satan and will be destroyed in Armageddon anyway. The real motive is that followers who are less qualified or not very educated might be more easily manipulated and less likely to challenge the organisation because where else would they go if their community kicked them out?

I haven't explicitly told my mum that I'm an atheist / no longer a JW, though she does suspect and understands this on some level as I no longer go to any of the church meetings. She does keep reminding me to attend them and read the publications from the organisation, and I say ok but don't do it.
It's an awkward compromise because if I did openly say that I am no longer a JW and do not believe in its teachings, then she will be put in the difficult position of having to cut off all contact and shun me otherwise she would be risking her own faith and approval from God. I don't want her to feel like she has to make that decision as I'm the only family she has, so we just don't talk about it and I don't criticise the JW organisation and beliefs in her presence. 🙁

Gosh that must be so difficult, and puts your mum in such a difficult place too. What a distortion to make someone believe that God’s approval would rest on a parent shunning their child. It goes against every instinct to love and protect and sounds gaslighty to me. Although it’s hard for the person to see it that way when they’re in the midst of it.

StarintheMorning That's fascinating and ironic that women who had lost their hair due to chemo were gifted the best wigs from a Jewish wig maker! PikesPeaked explained to us how the practice originated.

Jehovah's Witnesses reference a lot of the Old Testament along with the New, so I was aware of some of the ancient commandments around the rituals, clothing, menstruation etc. There are similarities with Muslim cleansing rituals as well, I guess since Christianity and Islam both developed out of Judaism. Hinduism has rules around menstruation too and what women are and aren't allowed to do during the time. Seems like women's bodies and reproductive functions are controlled in one way or another no matter which religion you look at.

Hi nonny

I’m not Asian but I am an ex JW and I posted quite a bit on previous threads. Re feminism I’ve embraced it in a way my daughters who were never raised in a religion don’t get but it’s very hard to shake the programming. The biggest one I suppose is abortion. I firmly believe in a woman’s right to bodily autonomy but at the same time I’m very very uncomfortable with that. It’s very hard to find a space to talk about things like that as most people don’t understand the impact of the programming and the internal conflict it can create. I know and believe in the right thing but it doesn’t sit easy with me.

I think I am never entireky comfortable with myself as a result.

On the Relationships board, when posters discuss toxic past relationships with their own parents, or their partner's relationship with his or her own parents, you often see mention of being held back in FOG - Fear, Obligation and Guilt.

Breaking away from a cult, even if you don't go as far as apostasy (as my parents did when they moved away from Orthodox Judaism to a more relaxed, assimilated, modern form of Judaism) must be very similar to breaking away from a family with a toxic dynamic, especially if you grew up thinking it was a normal, healthy, loving family. It must be just as challenging to escape the FOG.

Fear - how will I cope without my community? Maybe Hell is real and I'm going to end up there after all? I want to make new friends but I don't know how much what I was told about outsiders is true. I don't know whom to trust.

Obligation - they have me everything and I owe them everything. Women are supposed to be quiet and modest.

Guilt - I've made X sad. X will be ostracised because of me. I wish I didn't like bacon so much.

I came across this image recently and thought I'd share here.

I agree with a PP who said cults or religions are normal in all areas of society, and from what I've read, are something human minds are drawn to.

I'm an orthodox Jewish feminist. Orthodox Judaism is sub divided into many many streams, of which only one group (that I know of) shave their heads. It's not a very widespread practice at all.

Covering the hair as I personally interpret it is about reserving your beauty for your husband. Other people have different reasons for covering their hair. I tend to wear a scarf, although I do wear a wig when I fancy too.

Theres a saying 2 Jews 3 opinions which is why you'll find lots of different reasons why people cover. There is also lots of differences of opinions between and even within communities about wearing a wig. So some people will only wear short unnatural looking wigs, others only scarves, some will deliberately wear as beautiful and natural looking a wig as possible, some wear a hat or band on top of a wig. It depends on your reason why you cover. And definitely some people cover just because of tradition without finding out the reason why.

Also agree with rumbaas
If you subjugate or abuse women in the name of Judaism as far as I'm concerned you are perverting the religion to your own ends.

*the thought-terminating cliche
*
Exactly. Like "TWAW", or "It's god's will".

Feminism is a bit like religion. It passes down principles and then you try and live your life accordingly. It's almost like, it will save you from the evil of the patriarchy and the internalised misogyny in your heart if you just devote yourself to studying the feminist classics and banish sexist influences from your life as much as you can. Or is that just me?

No, because feminism is for all women, including those you disagree with, including those who reject it. Whereas a religion is only for its adherents and believers.

Yeah, that's just you. Feminism is not a religion.

Covering the hair as I personally interpret it is about reserving your beauty for your husband

Yeap, that is what Muslims have told me. It is to keep the sexual spark in a marriage alive, not to avoid tempting men.

I know it is uncool to defend any religious practice, but I find people that have inside knowledge of one religion then errroneously extrapolate that understanding to all other religions. Some religious communities within a major religion have unhealthy practices that are just custom and not based on religious teaching.

I find people that have inside knowledge of one religion then errroneously extrapolate that understanding to all other religions.

Inside knowledge is not necessary for people to extrapolate their understanding onto other religions. Try growing up in a country where the main religion is different to your religion!

And yet I've spoken to Muslims who have explicitly told me that women have to cover their hair to avoid inciting men to rape. And teenage Muslim women who have worn a niqab (full face covering veil) specifically because their parents and non-Muslims find it shocking.

All religions have huge variation, schisms and disagreements, and cultural differences make an enormous difference.