Women and Apostasy

[NonnyMouse1337]

Has anyone watched Unorthodox?
It's a fictionalised short story of a young woman from an orthodox Jewish community who struggles with her place in such a high control religion and decides to leave. It's loosely based on a real woman's experience.

www.netflix.com/gb/title/81019069

I was curious to know if there were any women here who are religious apostates like myself.

I really enjoyed watching the series. It was gripping and emotional. I know very little about orthodox Jewish beliefs and practices - though I had heard about women having to wear wigs. I thought it was an urban myth or something!

Watching it also stirred up my own memories and feelings linked to apostasy. It reminded me of myself, the women in my community, the men as well, my atheism and feminism that developed from those experiences.

I'm of Indian origin and was raised as a Jehovah's Witness by my mum (patriarchy squared ) though I was lucky as my parents were relatively broad-minded and I enjoyed a middle-class expat life so I had opportunities which ultimately helped me escape the confines of cultural and religious upbringing and cult influences. (Dad wasn't a JW.)

Another film that deals with religious apostasy with a focus on women's experience is simply titled Apostasy. It's about the Jehovah's Witnesses.

www.amazon.co.uk/Apostasy-Daniel-Kokotajlo/dp/B07FYJVKC7?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

I was a bit of an emotional wreck for a few days after watching this one as it was quite close to the bone. I also watched it in a local cinema where most of the audience were also ex-JWs. There was a great Q&A with the director, and people shared their personal stories which reflected many of my own experiences and I was reduced to a sobbing mess.

Anyway I liked Unorthodox and Apostasy as both are female led and focuses on issues from a woman's point of view. It also shows the role of other women in such high control religious groups - some embrace it while others have resigned themselves to it as they have nowhere else to go - they are too old or don't have the means to do so and have invested too much in the community and faith. They provide the lifelong supporting role to the men in these communities - unacknowledged, unappreciated, undervalued.

I don't know where I'm going with this post as I'm just rambling. I'll post more later when I have some more time. I don't really know another South Asian or Middle Eastern woman in person who is a staunch atheist and a feminist. I'm aware of women out there who are feminists and campaigners. Many of those feminists might be of the lib fem type and we might disagree on a number of things (and agree on others for sure).
I know there are plenty of people like me out there, but sometimes I feel very alone and isolated.
There are many atheists where I now live, but none who were shaped by the sort of religious beliefs like mine. In fact, many had no religious upbringing whatsoever, which I kind of envy at times. Similarly for those who are feminists.

I feel there's so much baggage in being a religious apostate and it has shaped my life and will continue to influence my life in so many subtle ways - I cannot bring myself to wear a swimsuit, nevermind a bikini. When I watched Esty walk into the sea fully clothed, I could totally relate.

If you are an apostate, what's it been like for you and how has it shaped your feminism?

I’m not Asian but I am an ex JW and I posted quite a bit on previous threads.

I'm way too late in responding to this post, as you're most likely not following this thread anymore, but thank you for posting RJnomore1!
It is good to see a fellow ex-JW.
I understand the conflict that can arise between deeply held beliefs or long-term conditioning versus rational views and factual positions we might support. Sometimes those conflicts can disappear over time, and sometimes they linger on.

I think this duality can be useful in certain circumstances as it gives a person an insight from both points of view, allowing for more nuance in discussions. It would be great if there were spaces as you say for these kinds of conflicts to be discussed.

PikesPeaked I'm really liking the concept of FOG - Fear, Obligation, Guilt. I'm going to try and remember that as it encapsulates the experience of questioning the deeply held beliefs you were brought up with quite well!

As for head coverings for women, I've heard all sorts of reasons - some as a way of expressing devotion to god, others as a way of showing modesty or reserving their beauty only for their husbands, some compare women without head coverings like sweets or meat that is unwrapped thereby allowing flies and other insects to settle on them. Maybe it comes down to whether one views certain things or practices more as an expression of an individual's free will and choice or whether a person's choices are shaped by the (positive or negative) social forces around them.

I went looking for some material from Jehovah's Witnesses about when women in the organisation are meant to wear a head covering, as it's been a while since I've read their stuff. So glad I'm no longer constantly reminded that I have to accept that men are above me in every respect.

wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102008084

In the family arrangement, the woman’s husband is the one whom Jehovah designates as her head. Unless she gives due recognition to her husband’s authority, she would shame her husband if she handled responsibilities that Jehovah assigns to him. For example, if it became necessary for her to conduct a Bible study in her husband’s presence, she would acknowledge his authority by wearing a head covering. She would do so whether he is baptized or not, since he is the head of the family. If she were to pray or to teach in the presence of her minor baptized son, she would likewise wear a head covering, not because he is the head of the family, but because of the authority granted to baptized male members of the Christian congregation.

I wasn't sure whether it was worth starting a brand new thread, or reviving this one.

There are 26 days left to watch Apostasy on BBC - www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000nx25

I'd really recommend it if you haven't seen it already. It is a fantastic depiction of some of the experiences of women as Jehovah's Witnesses and how their lives are shaped by their beliefs and the men within these groups.

To repeat what I said in my opening post,
I liked Unorthodox and Apostasy as both are female led and focuses on issues from a woman's point of view. It also shows the role of other women in such high control religious groups - some embrace it while others have resigned themselves to it as they have nowhere else to go - they are too old or don't have the means to do so and have invested too much in the community and faith. They provide the lifelong supporting role to the men in these communities - unacknowledged, unappreciated, undervalued.

Happy to discuss it with anyone who is interested. Will try not to give away spoilers.

I'd also recommend Deborah Feldman's book, Unorthodox, on which the Netflix series was based. Also Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book Nomad (I think her earlier book Infidel too, although I haven't read it) is a fascinating mix of autobiography and politics.

Wonderful suggestions, TheCuriousMonkey. Thanks.

Thanks Nonny for reviving this thread - I did not see it when you first posted in April.

I will definitely watch Apostasy. I was brought up as a JW in rural Africa and my experiences of that religion were awful (being beaten with a leather strap and chained to a chair once by my mum). My mum was a firm believer in ‘spare the rod spoil the child’ and she truly believed that the religion gave her every right to discipline my brother and I as she saw fit - she admitted this to me about 10 years ago.

I got out when I was 18 and whilst I still talk to my mum occasionally, our relationship is very strained.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Thank you for your post, KittyValentine! I'm sorry you had such an awful experience growing up and the relationship with your mum is strained due to her physical abusiveness.

I think many of us who were JWs can relate. They do love the 'spare the rod, spoil the child' verse, don't they? My mum had a similar mindset, but my dad wasn't a JW and told my mum he wouldn't tolerate such kinds of disciplinary actions towards me. So I think that helped me in a way.

I'm glad you managed to get out. I have a very strained relationship with my mother too. She has mellowed a bit in her beliefs as she has gotten older. I haven't directly told her I'm an atheist as it would be too upsetting for her and she will feel under pressure to cut all contact with me - such is the cult mindset. I don't want her to feel like she has to make that decision, so we avoid religious topics in general. She knows I don't practice the beliefs anymore, but thinks maybe I will change my mind later, and we leave it at that.