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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

LIZ TRUSS AND CHILD TRANSGENDER HEALTH CARE

105 replies

LindaLeeDanvers · 24/04/2020 11:21

On Wednesday (22nd April) it was published in some of the LGBT+ news mediums that Liz Truss had given a statement to the Women’s and Equality Select committee regarding the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act. In this she made 3 statements all of which raised concern within the trans community, though one caused serious concerns for transgender individuals all over the UK. She said;-

“Finally, which is not a direct issue concerning the Gender Recognition Act, but is relevant, making sure that the under 18s are protected from decisions that they could make, that are irreversible in the future. I believe strongly that adults should have the freedom to lead their lives as they see fit, but I think it’s very important that while people are still developing their decision-making capabilities that we protect them from making those irreversible decisions.”

Essentially spouting a line that gender critical people have been spouting for several years now, in essence saying that they don’t think those under the age of 18 should be allowed medical intervention. Things like puberty blockers to prevent transgender children from having to go through puberty, allowing them to buy more time to decide and to stop them having to go through something that does produce irreversible changes. Also stopping those who are normally 16 or over from being able to access cross sex hormones to allow them to go through puberty that aligns with their gender identity.

As these people think that the children who are coming out as transgender and seeking help for it are not actually transgender. They make claims such as they are just confused people who are taking the transgender path because of external pressure from websites and social media. Or that it’s the parents pushing their children to go down this path because it’s “trendy” and the parents of those children will be seen in a positive light.

But if you talk to any transgender person who is over 18, they will tell you that they did feel the same way as a child as they do as an adult. That their gender identity had developed when they were young, they just didn’t have the words to be able to express it back then or they feared how it would be handled if they had told people.

Though now society is more open about people being transgender, and there is much more information out there about it which allows young people to be able to express how they feel and feel confident to be able to come out to those around them. This being the case we are now seeing transgender people coming out at a younger age, rather than in later life as it had been in the past.

So this statement made by Liz Truss is rather alarming that she is actually considering taking steps to deny those under 18 access to medical treatment and would essentially force all transgender people to have to experience a puberty that conflicts with their gender identity. As someone who had to deal with that, to me forcing people to do it is a horrible thing to do. Because it causes so much mental anguish and does cause irreversible changes and in my honest opinion would be on par with torture due to the mental anguish it would cause.

When I first read this I sat and thought about it for a while and started to think about the legalities of doing such a thing and instantly a whole raft of things popped in to my head about how doing such a thing would clash with several UK laws that already exist.

The first thing that popped in to my head was Gillick competence, which is derived from the House of Lords Case Gillick v West Norfolk and Wisbech Area Health Authority [1985] UKHL 7, which sets in law the principle in this case that anyone under the age of 16 can provide legal consent for medical treatment if they can demonstrate that they understand the potential consequences of that treatment.

This on its own throws up the first legal issue that the government would have to deal with. A simple ban on anyone under the age of 18 accessing medical treatment specifically for treatments relating to gender identity, would be them saying that they agree with Gilick but not with regards to transgender people.

Which is direct discrimination against transgender people, and as such would allow for any trans person affected by this the ability to take the government to court using two possible methods. Those being either under the Equality Act 2010, which explicitly makes direct discrimination on the grounds of gender identity unlawful or an Article 14 claim (Prohibition of discrimination) alongside either Article 8 (Right to respect for private and family life) or Article 10 (Freedom of expression) using the Human Rights Act 1998.

Now the government in this situation could relatively easily deal with the Equality Act issue, by alongside the bit of legislation that they would need to introduce such a ban include an exemption amendment to the Equality act that says doing this would not be discrimination. That would then go along side all the other exemptions that there are in the Equality Act. Meaning that they would need two parliamentary votes to introduce a ban, and with a majority of 80 that is possible to do.

But the Human Rights Act is different; there is not a list of exemptions that they could simply add too. This would end up having to be decided by judges as if to they would consider such a ban to be discriminatory or not. Potentially going all the way through the British Judicial system and ending up in Strasbourg at the European Court of Human Rights for them to decide on the issue. Meaning that the decision would be made by people who didn’t have a political motive for deciding on it.

Now when it comes to Human Rights Law things get complicated if a government wishes to change or repeal it. As such actions could invoke the Sewel Convention, meaning that not only would the parliament in Westminster need to vote on any changes but the devolved governments of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would have a say in it. With any one of them being able to stop any change.

Then on top of that any changes to the Human Rights Act would directly impact The Good Friday Agreement, and changes to that need both the consent of the British Government and the Irish Government. This would require that part of the Good Friday Agreement to be re-negotiated and then ratified by both nations.

If all that was achieved the government would still be faced with the issue of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) to deal with. As while hypothetically changes to domestic Human Rights legislation is possible the ECHR has supremacy over domestic legislation and thus any decision on banning under 18’s from medical treatment was discriminatory would fall to the judges at the European Court of Human Rights.

Who have already said in L. v. Lithuania, that it is unlawful for governments to put undue restrictions on accessing services for the treatment of transgender people, so a blanket ban on treating under 18’s would do just that.

Therefore if Liz Truss wanted to introduce a ban on medical treatment for under 18’s in the UK she would have to do the following;-

First she would have to amend the Equalities Act to introduce a new exemption making it legal to discriminate against those under 18 in refusing them medical treatment. Then repeal the Human Rights Act, which in turn would trigger the Sewel Convention meaning that she would need to gain consent from the Devolved Parliament’s and hope that they all agree with her. After that she would then be left having to re-negotiate the Good Friday Agreement and get it ratified by both the UK Government and Irish Government. Then take the founding member state of the European Convention on Human Rights out of it so that the European Court of Human Rights couldn’t find against the UK government for discriminating against every transgender person under the age of 18.

Then she could introduce her discriminatory view on how to treat transgender people under the age of 18 in to UK law. Which while it is possible for her to do all off that, it is highly unlikely that there would not be some major opposition to it happening at any one of those steps.

Plus you would have to deal with the views of the public when they realised what you were doing, and the backlash there would be from groups who have won rights using Human Rights Legislation and how those rights could now be lost as a result of what she would have to do just to stop transgender teenagers and children from accessing medical help.

OP posts:
SeriouslySoDoneIn · 24/04/2020 11:25

I think she has a very valid point. There are thousands of transgender individuals who regret their childhood choices - just google it and it’ll bring you them up. Children should not be allowed to make an irreversible decision when they’re not mature enough to grasp the entirety of their decision. We put age limits on things like alcohol, sex, marriage etc to protect children, the same should be done with medication

Barbthebuilder · 24/04/2020 11:27

You've got the Equality Act wrong. It makes no mention of Gender Identity, only gender reassignment.

SeriouslySoDoneIn · 24/04/2020 11:41

sexchangeregret.com - this is actually quite a useful site on the subject

triggsey · 24/04/2020 11:48

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AnyOldPrion · 24/04/2020 11:50

I don’t currently have time to read and unpick your whole post, but I got this far:

But if you talk to any transgender person who is over 18, they will tell you that they did feel the same way as a child as they do as an adult.

That may be the case, but the group you need to talk to are not transitioners. You need to talk to all the people who would have chosen to transition during teenage years, given the chance.

Evidence suggests that only 20% transition. Had the rest been encouraged to do so, as they are now, the disaster would be huge.

BacklashStarts · 24/04/2020 11:53

I think it’s quite clear you aren’t a lawyer and don’t understand many of the things you’ve just posted about. Having a think about something is in no way akin to knowing anything about it. I’m no Liz Truss fan but she will have had a lot of people a lot smarter and more knowledgable than you or I looking at this.

Just as a small think I think the link you’ve made between medication and human rights is incredibly tenuous. There are thousands of situations on which people don’t get the medication they want or have googled / those instances do not violate their human rights. Especially in cases where the treatment is more akin to elective surgery and not in anyway necessary for the functioning of the body.

Right try, but no.

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 24/04/2020 11:54

Plus you would have to deal with the views of the public when they realised what you were doing, and the backlash there would be from groups who have won rights using Human Rights Legislation and how those rights could now be lost as a result of what she would have to do just to stop transgender teenagers and children from accessing medical help.

As a rule, people are against sterilising children in my experience. Most people are shocked at the level of medicalisation and surgical intervention being suggested for children, and think that perhaps less drastic solutions should probably be explored first, what with kids being kids and all.

BacklashStarts · 24/04/2020 11:54

*nice try

Strangerthantruth · 24/04/2020 11:56

You are talking to parents here.

MrsSnippyPants · 24/04/2020 12:00

Nobody on this earth can "go through puberty that aligns with their gender identity."

One can only go through a puberty that your sexed body allows.

Giving a girl testosterone will not give here a penis and testicles and make her capable of an erection or the production of sperm.
Giving a boy female hormones will not make him develop a uterus and ovaries, produce eggs and have periods.

Bodies are awkward like that.

LindaLeeDanvers · 24/04/2020 12:01

@BacklashStarts yeah the three letters LLB after my name mean i have no idea what i am talking about. And actually the right to access medical care, if it is refused or delayed unduly does violate the Art 8 rights of an individual as it states in the case L v Lithuania. The law is very clear on this and the court has said that there is no room for negotiation on this and that they will not hear any further cases concerning this issue as they have settled it.

OP posts:
Kit19 · 24/04/2020 12:01

tsk mrssnippypants you with your pesky facts there

Duchessofealing · 24/04/2020 12:01

I don’t often post here but as a parent I am fully supportive of Liz Truss’ position on this. Children do not have the ability to make decisions impacting the rest of their lives. This is an important safeguarding measure.

StampMc · 24/04/2020 12:01

No sure hat “the public” is as keen on the medicalisation of normal puberty, gender non-conformity, homosexuality and generalised exploration of self during teenage years as you think they are. Removal of children’s potential sexual function and fertility is not generally seen as a plus, despite a certain segment of the adult population salivating over the idea of people over the age of consent being lumbered with pre pubescent bodies.

titchy · 24/04/2020 12:06

Oh bless you've got a law degree and you think you know everything!

Michelleoftheresistance · 24/04/2020 12:08

Chemically or surgically altering a body is debatable as a medical treatment, it's an elective cosmetic procedure. Removing a child's fertility, reproductive capacity and significant body parts unless this is an absolute medical necessity such as those parts being cancerous, shouldn't be an option. Those are decisions only adults should be making.

A teenager distressed about going through their sexed puberty needs treatment for the distress, much much better treatment for the distress, focused on helping them cope with their body. Adults have responsibility to protect children from making permanent decisions with massive consequences that they may later come to regret. We're already hearing people like Kiera Bell asking 'why wasn't I protected from this?'

Michelleoftheresistance · 24/04/2020 12:08

Incidentally why the shouty title in block capitals?

Xiaoxiong · 24/04/2020 12:09

if you talk to any transgender person who is over 18, they will tell you that they did feel the same way as a child as they do as an adult

This may be true but this is confirmation bias. If you talk to the ones who haven't changed their mind, well surprise surprise, they haven't changed their mind.

There are an increasing number of people who are publicly saying that they no longer identify as transgender, and do not feel the same way as they did as a child. Some of those people's bodies have been permanently changed as a result of treatments to which they now feel they never should have had access and from which they should have been protected. Because they were children.

Putting those children on the road to life-long dependence on medication and elective, irreversible surgery if there is any chance they will feel differently later in life is horrendous and is what massively woke me up to this entire issue.

I tell my children their bodies are perfect as they are. They are perfect as they are and self-acceptance is key to happiness. They are wonderful and I will accept them no matter what they wear or look like, no matter who they love, and so should the world. They do not need to surgically remove a single bit of their bodies, they don't need to fit in any box, if they feel like wearing anything, loving anyone, whatever. Their only responsibility is to take responsibility to take reasonable steps to stay healthy, as you only have one body and it has to last you your whole life through.

Transgender messaging goes against every single value I hold and hope to instil in them.

OneEpisode · 24/04/2020 12:11

so Supergirl has a bachelors degree in law? I never knew that!

ducksback · 24/04/2020 12:12

LindaLee I like your name - souds very like a c&w singer's name.

If you are a lawyer, how come you completely get the Equality Act wrong in your OP...are you telling porkies?

TinselAngel · 24/04/2020 12:13

But if you talk to any transgender person who is over 18, they will tell you that they did feel the same way as a child as they do as an adult.

That's not what the detransitioners are saying.

Winesalot · 24/04/2020 12:17

Firstly, how does allowing a child to avoid puberty and suffer the permanent effects of medication for the rest of their lives benefit you, personally?

Plus you would have to deal with the views of the public when they realised what you were doing Actually, I think that the additional, independent and robust studies and real statistical analysis that needs to be done actually getting the backing to be done is of great benefit to anyone who actually cares about children and women.

Dispelling the pseudo-science and releasing relevant proven science is in global interest. If the studies and analysis improves the support overall for these under 18s, how can that be wrong?

OneEpisode · 24/04/2020 12:21

Kara Zor-El was given the human name Linda Lee Danvers by her US 1950’s adopted parents. The modern tv series calls her Kara Danvers. Because Linda is no longer an appropriate name apparently.

RobinMoiraWhite · 24/04/2020 12:21

'There are thousands of transgender individuals who regret their childhood choices - just google it and it’ll bring you them up.'

Nope. Its a myth. There aren't. There are some, but many fewer as a percentage than have run into trouble with other medical treatments unrelated to being transgender.

PrimalLass · 24/04/2020 12:24

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